Football Study Hall (formerly “On the nickel being your base”)

[GTBandit22]

In the age of the spread, many teams, including our favorite, has gone to a nickel base to counter all of the skill players on the field. It makes sense, you want speed on the field.
But I think he makes a good point, in that teams like ND and even teams like Uga and BC will trot out two+TE, or a TE and Hback/fullback, and mash you in the run game.
Is the extra speed worth getting mashed? ND blew us off the ball probably worse than anyone last year. I don’t know if a hippo-like package would have made any difference, but could it hurt to try? A normal 4-3? At least against teams that like to throw in big packages

Just spitballing, as our current nickel base and our former “wolf” experiment have not been good defenses. Are we hamstringing ourselves or is it a matter of front 7 talent, and doesn’t really matter that much if you swap a LB or two in for DBs?

 

[TruckStick]

You get good at what you practice but if you practice a weakness then what’s the point.

 

[augustabuzz]

In the age of the spread, many teams, including our favorite, has gone to a nickel base to counter all of the skill players on the field. It makes sense, you want speed on the field.
But I think he makes a good point, in that teams like ND and even teams like Uga and BC will trot out two+TE, or a TE and Hback/fullback, and mash you in the run game.
Is the extra speed worth getting mashed? ND blew us off the ball probably worse than anyone last year. I don’t know if a hippo-like package would have made any difference, but could it hurt to try? A normal 4-3? At least against teams that like to throw in big packages

Just spitballing, as our current nickel base and our former “wolf” experiment have not been good defenses. Are we hamstringing ourselves or is it a matter of front 7 talent, and doesn’t really matter that much if you swap a LB or two in for DBs?

That has been my pet peeve. I'm expecting KSU to have an extra tackle and run unbalanced all day.

 

[slugboy]

I understand a coach saying “let’s get good at one defense before we add another one”.

Over the last 20 years, we’ve run mostly a 4-3 under Tenuta, mostly a 4-2-5 under Wommack, a 3-4 under Groh (and mostly under Kelly, as I remember), Mostly a 4-2-5 under Roof, but it was our base and not our only defense, and a 3-4 under Nate Woody. It’s been so long since Tenuta that I don’t remember if we had a lot of different personnel groupings (but we did have a lot of blitzes). In the last 10 years, none of them were more than average, and most were not good. It seems unfair to put too much blame on a 4-2-5 scheme that is the most popular against the “‘multiple’ read-option” offense.

I could see us with a goalline 52 or 5-3 package, but I don’t think we had a lot of goalline stands last year to see if we had one. Lots of teams in the pre-read-option days would flex from a 4-3 to a 4-2-5 when their opponents went 4 or 5 wide. It’s possible to have the variations in your base defense.

The problems that killed us the last two seasons probably wouldn’t be fixed by a change in formation. In the middle of the defensive line, the G-C-G’s fired off faster and won at the point of attack. Through the first half of the season, we had one linebacker taking too long to make a read, and getting stuck behind a wall of people, and another one getting in the wrong lane. We had a safety and a linebacker filling the same hole. Changing your defensive formation isn’t going to fix that.

 

[4shotB]

Is the extra speed worth getting mashed? ND blew us off the ball probably worse than anyone last year. I don’t know if a hippo-like package would have made any difference, but could it hurt to try? A normal 4-3? At least against teams that like to throw in big packages

I wasn't sure but when faced with uncertainty, I will defer to the experts. I consider coach Saban to have more knowledge regarding defensive football than myself. So, I will parrot what he says and say "no." The other telling thing he says is you gotta match personnel. I think he means more than alignment here. So, and again I am making inferences here, you gotta be in the right package and with people who are equivalent to or better than the guys on the other side.

Speed is critical. But, ceteris paribus, BPBUSP.

 

[boger2337]

You get good at what you practice but if you practice a weakness then what’s the point.

We don't even practice correctly lol

 

[jacketup]

When you have Bama's depth/personnel, it's much easier to change your base from one week to the next. If you listen to Thacker's press conference of yesterday he talks about how they are just now getting the body types in that they want. Sure we could change the base defense, but without the personnel, what difference would it make?

Players, not defensive alignments, win games. We are just now starting to get the players we need, and those guys are young and still learning. We aren't Bama and aren't at a point of having the luxury of being able to make lots of changes from week to week on offense or defense.

 

[SteamWhistle]

Just gotta be ever changing and adapting based on personnel. For example : This season if Im Coach Thacker with the DT vs DE situation it’s clear we can field 2 legit DEs but maybe not 2 legit DTs. C. Thomas, K. Wright, Kennard, Harris. None of these guys are a “prototype” edge player for a 3-3-5, but If you mix and match correctly those 4 could work in different scenarios and give us what we would need for certain individual plays. With that being said I like 3 DL for us, I get the mindset that you can’t make a weaker unit stronger by taking away numbers but at same time have to recognize your strengths. Also you can easily get into a 4 down with only 1 substitution against a hurry up scheme. Bring C. Thomas (or any Edge) out sub in another DT have WDE slide out. I’m not saying we base our whole defense on the Edge guys but what I’m getting at is we have to play to our strengths, it’s clear we can’t create much pressure inside. The ILB fake blitz drop into Cover 3 last year fooled no one except for FSU, we have to start getting on the edge. It’s what the elite teams do, watch Clemson, UGA, Bama, that Edge position from a 3-3-5 look is usually their most important player. Isiah Simmons, Azeez Ojulari, Will Anderson are 3 guys Clemson, UGA, Bama have produced from there recently that have/will be 1st rounders. It’s unrealistic to say we have anyone of that caliber but with the right scheme and substitution mix we could have 4 guys combine into the production that those 3 had by themselves.

 

[SteamWhistle]

To sum up my huge post basically my mindset for Tech is we should be 3 DL.
Base 3-3-5 and 3-4 against certain teams/personnel.

 

[slugboy]

@GTBandit22 do you mind if we rename this “football study hall”, so we can put videos like this in here?


@Ibeeballin since you mentioned formations earlier, Buddy Ryan’s Polish defense is one of my faves (even though it’s a bigoted name). 14 man defense as the clock is running out:

http://smartfootball.com/defense/buddy-ryans-polish-goalline-tactic#sthash.jsi7DBJk.dpbs

 

[slugboy]

Since Coastal Carolina came up a few times in other discussions:

 

[FlatsLander]

Since Coastal Carolina came up a few times in other discussions:

Is this not a penalty? the playside Tackle is 3 yards downfield when the pass is thrown, right?

 

[forensicbuzz]

Is this not a penalty? the playside Tackle is 3 yards downfield when the pass is thrown, right?

not if they don't call it. but, yes.

 

[LibertyTurns]

Is this not a penalty? the playside Tackle is 3 yards downfield when the pass is thrown, right?

3yds is the college rule. He’s not technically downfield if he’s not more than 3yds off the line when the ball’s thrown. Pros is 1yd.

 

[GTBandit22]

Just gotta be ever changing and adapting based on personnel. For example : This season if Im Coach Thacker with the DT vs DE situation it’s clear we can field 2 legit DEs but maybe not 2 legit DTs. C. Thomas, K. Wright, Kennard, Harris. None of these guys are a “prototype” edge player for a 3-3-5, but If you mix and match correctly those 4 could work in different scenarios and give us what we would need for certain individual plays. With that being said I like 3 DL for us, I get the mindset that you can’t make a weaker unit stronger by taking away numbers but at same time have to recognize your strengths. Also you can easily get into a 4 down with only 1 substitution against a hurry up scheme. Bring C. Thomas (or any Edge) out sub in another DT have WDE slide out. I’m not saying we base our whole defense on the Edge guys but what I’m getting at is we have to play to our strengths, it’s clear we can’t create much pressure inside. The ILB fake blitz drop into Cover 3 last year fooled no one except for FSU, we have to start getting on the edge. It’s what the elite teams do, watch Clemson, UGA, Bama, that Edge position from a 3-3-5 look is usually their most important player. Isiah Simmons, Azeez Ojulari, Will Anderson are 3 guys Clemson, UGA, Bama have produced from there recently that have/will be 1st rounders. It’s unrealistic to say we have anyone of that caliber but with the right scheme and substitution mix we could have 4 guys combine into the production that those 3 had by themselves.

Looks like Thack has been reading your posts, my man.

 

[slugboy]

Football Outsiders wrote up the Carolina Panthers defense and their thumping of New Orleans last weekend: https://www.footballoutsiders.com/any-given-sunday/2021/carolina-panthers-trojan-horse

It’s a nice breakdown of Sean Payton getting outcoached.

 

[GTBandit22]

Seemingly simple adjustment, but much harder in practice. You’re basically taking that end out of run support, which should give NO an advantage on the ground. Kudos to the other Panthers for picking up the slack.

 

[slugboy]

Here’s the same game, with the same blitz called three times in a row


I watched the Falcons that day instead.

 

[UgaBlows]

To sum up my huge post basically my mindset for Tech is we should be 3 DL.
Base 3-3-5 and 3-4 against certain teams/personnel.

Charlie Thomas seemed to really shine in the 3-3-5, what a nose for the ball that dude has!

 

[MidtownJacket]

Charlie Thomas seemed to really shine in the 3-3-5, what a nose for the ball that dude has!

CAT talked about how he is just so dangerous out in space