Expansion Talk 2021

[wesgt123]

Stop me?

STOP IT RIGHT NOW SIR

 

[bobongo]

You didn't state fact, you provided a statistic. You know what they say about statistics...Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics. The devil is in the details. I've done the analysis before. I won't do it again, but I can tell you that outside of 4 teams, the rest of the SEC have losing records in the last 20 years against P5 teams. (caveat: this was done about 5 years ago, so maybe a little bit of up or down)

Yeah, well statistics are facts, they're the proof in the pudding. The actual results on the field. I'm talking about top to bottom, from Alabama to Vanderbilt. If you can produce facts that show the SEC upper crust habitually beats up on ACC bottom feeders, I'll believe you about the devil and the details.

 

[RonJohn]

Ron Jon,
You keep bringing up Alabama like they are the only team in the SEC who has won anything. If that were the case I’d agree with you. Just like we all know the ACC is Clemson and everyone else. But, you simply refuse to acknowledge that the SEC has won 11 of the last 20 years by 4 different teams. It’s not just Bama winning. We’ve all seen many SEC teams win Natties recently (Florida, Auburn, LSU, and Bama). Tennessee was longer ago and Jimbo has A&M as a top 10 every year just waiting for their special QB. No other conference is even close. I hate them and root against every SEC team every OOC game they play. Just because I point out in football message board that they are dominant in football doesn’t make me a bad fan. I was born into the ACC (literally in College Park, MD) and hung out at Cole Field house as a kid (my dad was a scholarship athlete at MD). Thankfully they moved south and I found GT!!

In the BCS era, the SEC worked the hype into the format and they were all but guaranteed a team in the championship no matter what. In one year, they got two teams in the championship even though the game that those two teams had already played that year was among the most boring games I have ever seen. Literally just being in the SEC with the SEC hype train improved the chances of getting into the game. If one out of two teams in the MNC game is from the SEC every year, they will automatically have a good chance of winning more than others.

Alabama IS the only perennial great team in the SEC. Auburn is one of the four that you allude to. Two years after their national championship, they were 0-8 in the SEC. They have been up and down and up and down. LSU is one of those teams that you allude to. They split a MNC with Saban (who is now running Alabama), they won with Miles, and they won with Orgeron. Other than those years they are a 9 win team. Florida is one of those teams. Since Meyer left, they have had a couple of 11 win seasons along with a couple of 4 win seasons. There are zero other teams in the SEC that have the recent pedigree that Alabama has. The SEC is: Alabama and one or two good teams. Who those other good teams are rotates around a lot.

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

I agree with you about the facts, but I believe the willingness to spend huge amounts of money is killing college football and basketball. So, when we start arguing about what killed the sport we love, let's not forget how we got there.

Agreed. Money corrupts everything at some point just like pretty women. There is no solution because we live in a free country where schools can choose what to spend their money on. And unfortunately, the entity who could have done something to create a system with rules ceded that power decades ago and now doesn’t even really exist. College football is no different than youth travel baseball leagues where kids change teams every weekend based on which coach offers the best incentive to the parents.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I get your point but come on. When was the last time GT has scheduled A regular season game west of the Mississippi? I get it. We all hate UGA. But you bring up points to try and make them look bad yet we do even less. Listen, the difference between the SEC and the ACC is simple. The 2nd tier teams in the SEC are just way better than any other conferences 2nd tier. The bottom feeders in all just suck.

1st tier - SEC (Bama), ACC (Clemson), BIG (Ohio St.).

2nd tier - SEC (UGA, Texas A&M, LSU, Florida), ACC (UNC), BIG (? maybe Penn State)

3rd tier - SEC (Auburn, Missouri), ACC (Miami, VT, maybe BC), BIG (? Northwestern, Iowa)

4th tier and below are all mediocre to garbage.

I’m not sure how you are constructing the tiers. Not picking, just unclear.

For instance. FSU and Miami have been in the national hunt for lots of years. They certainly have been down recently but are top tiers only the current top teams?

If that is true then in the SEC currently only has 2 top tier teams -Alabama and Georgia. The rest would be average to mediocre.

Or, to flip it another way, we know that SEC teams that have been lousy for a few years will eventually climb back to top tier status, like Florida, Auburn and LSU. But the same could be said for teams like Virginia Tech, Virginia, Michigan, Wisconsin, Iowa, Nebraska

And Tech has certainly taken a reputation beating the last four years but my expectation is that we will once again be recognized nationally.

But if you look at long term bottom feeders then I certainly would put Arkansas, Vanderbilt and Missouri in the same category as Duke, Wake Forest and Syracuse. But, funny thing, if those 6 teams played a round robin tourney I would place my money on the ACC to eek out a win.

 

[yjack]

I totally agree with all that. The polls shouldn’t start until October. And the playoffs will expand we’ll past 12 in the future because of what you said. There is interest and money in it.

The committee playoff polls don't start until closer to mid season. As far as growing past 12 teams, there has to be some consideration to limiting the number of games these young men play.

 

[Vespidae]

The SEC is: Alabama and one or two good teams. Who those other good teams are rotates around a lot.

Here’s the reality. The 2021 NFL Draft by Conference...

• SEC -- 65
• Big Ten -- 44
• ACC -- 42
• Pac-12 -- 28
• Big 12 -- 22
• AAC -- 19
• Independent -- 15
• Conference USA -- 5
• FCS -- 5
• MAC -- 4
• Mountain West -- 3
• Sun Belt -- 3
• Divisions II/III -- 4

The SEC, year in and year out, has outstanding talent. And, year in And year out, has the most eyeballs watching. If the NCAA gets ONE team into the BCS, it’s a cash machine.

 

[forensicbuzz]

I get your point but come on. When was the last time GT has scheduled A regular season game west of the Mississippi? I get it. We all hate UGA. But you bring up points to try and make them look bad yet we do even less. Listen, the difference between the SEC and the ACC is simple. The 2nd tier teams in the SEC are just way better than any other conferences 2nd tier. The bottom feeders in all just suck.

1st tier - SEC (Bama), ACC (Clemson), BIG (Ohio St.).

2nd tier - SEC (UGA, Texas A&M, LSU, Florida), ACC (UNC), BIG (? maybe Penn State)

3rd tier - SEC (Auburn, Missouri), ACC (Miami, VT, maybe BC), BIG (? Northwestern, Iowa)

4th tier and below are all mediocre to garbage.

HA! This is so subjective and shows your inherent SEC bias. Your tiers are so wrong it isn't funny.

 

[forensicbuzz]

Yeah, well statistics are facts, they're the proof in the pudding. The actual results on the field. I'm talking about top to bottom, from Alabama to Vanderbilt. If you can produce facts that show the SEC upper crust habitually beats up on ACC bottom feeders, I'll believe you about the devil and the details.

I've got nothing to prove to you. Accept that someone has done the research or don't. I don't care. Statistics are not facts. Statistics are a way of analyzing and presenting data to support or refute a hypothesis. That's not fact.

Statitics: Georgia Tech has more SEC championships than more than half the SEC and we haven't competed in the SEC in 55 years. Georgia Tech has a winning record against the SEC. The only SEC teams (out of 14 teams) with a winning record against GT are Alabama, uga, Tennessee, and Auburn (we're 27-28 against auburn). That Vaunted 2nd tier with LSU and Florida, both losers against GT. We're -25 against uga and -11 against Alabama. Take those two teams away and we've curb-stomped the vaunted SEC.

So, what does that tell us about the strength of GT? I don't really think it does. Nice for chest-thumping, but not really relevant.

 

[forensicbuzz]

Here’s the reality. The 2021 NFL Draft by Conference...

• SEC -- 65
• Big Ten -- 44
• ACC -- 42
• Pac-12 -- 28
• Big 12 -- 22
• AAC -- 19
• Independent -- 15
• Conference USA -- 5
• FCS -- 5
• MAC -- 4
• Mountain West -- 3
• Sun Belt -- 3
• Divisions II/III -- 4

The SEC, year in and year out, has outstanding talent. And, year in And year out, has the most eyeballs watching. If the NCAA gets ONE team into the BCS, it’s a cash machine.

No. This is not a good measure for the quality of a conference. It's just another chest-thumping point for the leagues at the top. A recruiting tool.

 

[RonJohn]

Here’s the reality. The 2021 NFL Draft by Conference...

• SEC -- 65
• Big Ten -- 44
• ACC -- 42
• Pac-12 -- 28
• Big 12 -- 22
• AAC -- 19
• Independent -- 15
• Conference USA -- 5
• FCS -- 5
• MAC -- 4
• Mountain West -- 3
• Sun Belt -- 3
• Divisions II/III -- 4

The SEC, year in and year out, has outstanding talent. And, year in And year out, has the most eyeballs watching. If the NCAA gets ONE team into the BCS, it’s a cash machine.

So how does that refute that the SEC is one great team, and another good team or two that rotates around among: LSU, Auburn, Florida, mutts? Is having 40% more draft picks across the conference proof that the SEC has more great teams than just Alabama? It doesn't.

 

[Vespidae]

No. This is not a good measure for the quality of a conference. It's just another chest-thumping point for the leagues at the top. A recruiting tool.

And they are "a league at the top because of ... ?"

If a league has the best talent, they are more than likely to win vs. others. Not always, but more than likely. Is this even disputable?

 

[Vespidae]

So how does that refute that the SEC is one great team, and another good team or two that rotates around among: LSU, Auburn, Florida, mutts? Is having 40% more draft picks across the conference proof that the SEC has more great teams than just Alabama? It doesn't.

I'm not debating that Alabama is consistently good and that the #2, #3 and #4 rotate. I'm simply pointing out that the SEC brand is what it is because of the total strength of a) the sheer size of the fanbase and turn out in terms of attendance and viewership and b) the sheer number of higher quality players that gravitate there.

Thinks what you want about the SEC, but they do a great job of managing their brand and it's a brand that appeals to players and fans alike.

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

The committee playoff polls don't start until closer to mid season. As far as growing past 12 teams, there has to be some consideration to limiting the number of games these young men play.

I don’t know how old you are but there has not been consideration for student athletes for at least 50 years. Forget the number of football games. That’s been thrown out the window years ago. What about baseball or softball teams getting back to campus at 4am during the school week. Same for hoops. Just realize no one in a position of power cares one iota about the athletes no matte4 what they say. They realize there is always the next crop of eager players looking to be next.

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

I’m not sure how you are constructing the tiers. Not picking, just unclear.

For instance. FSU and Miami have been in the national hunt for lots of years. They certainly have been down recently but are top tiers only the current top teams?

If that is true then in the SEC currently only has 2 top tier teams -Alabama and Georgia. The rest would be average to mediocre.

Or, to flip it another way, we know that SEC teams that have been lousy for a few years will eventually climb back to top tier status, like Florida, Auburn and LSU. But the same could be said for teams like Virginia Tech, Virginia, Michigan, Wisconsin, Iowa, Nebraska

And Tech has certainly taken a reputation beating the last four years but my expectation is that we will once again be recognized nationally.

But if you look at long term bottom feeders then I certainly would put Arkansas, Vanderbilt and Missouri in the same category as Duke, Wake Forest and Syracuse. But, funny thing, if those 6 teams played a round robin tourney I would place my money on the ACC to eek out a win.

Are you really trying to compare Florida, Auburn, and LSU to VT, UVA, Michigan, Wisconsin, Iowa, and Nebraska. Florida, Auburn, and LSU have all won Natty’s in the past 12 years. Heck, LSU one a Natty in the year 2020. VT still has that trophy case waiting. UVA hasn’t been legit since 1990. Michigan is done - no recruiting in that area and the few crumbs go to Ohio St. Wisconsin and Iowa are like GT. Good every 7-8 years and every once in a while go on a 3 year run of decency. Nebraska much like Michigan is done.

As for the tiers it’s just my opinion. If you want to make your own and say UVA is the same as LSU then so be it.

 

[RonJohn]

I'm not debating that Alabama is consistently good and that the #2, #3 and #4 rotate. I'm simply pointing out that the SEC brand is what it is because of the total strength of a) the sheer size of the fanbase and turn out in terms of attendance and viewership and b) the sheer number of higher quality players that gravitate there.

Thinks what you want about the SEC, but they do a great job of managing their brand and it's a brand that appeals to players and fans alike.

I have not said that the SEC isn't a good brand. What I have been saying is that the marketing and the hype about the SEC is far above what the SEC actually is. (That is true about marketing in general). Some people in this thread are spouting the marketing hype as though it is fact.

 

[forensicbuzz]

And they are "a league at the top because of ... ?"

If a league has the best talent, they are more than likely to win vs. others. Not always, but more than likely. Is this even disputable?

What makes a good pro isn't always what makes for a good college player. Or better said, there are outstanding college players that just don't make good pros. Trying to rank a conference by the number of draft choices is...silly. Besides, you're talking about 20 players spread out over 14 teams. Do you really think that's a difference-maker? No, I don't either.

 

[yjack]

I don’t know how old you are but there has not been consideration for student athletes for at least 50 years. Forget the number of football games. That’s been thrown out the window years ago. What about baseball or softball teams getting back to campus at 4am during the school week. Same for hoops. Just realize no one in a position of power cares one iota about the athletes no matte4 what they say. They realize there is always the next crop of eager players looking to be next.

What does my age have to do with it? That's an irrelevant comment. Just a couple weeks ago Dabo Swinney was lamenting that if the playoffs expand much the regular season might need to be shortened because of the wear and tear on the maturing bodies of the young men. Do you dismiss his judgement and concern?

 

[Vespidae]

What makes a good pro isn't always what makes for a good college player. Or better said, there are outstanding college players that just don't make good pros. Trying to rank a conference by the number of draft choices is...silly. Besides, you're talking about 20 players spread out over 14 teams. Do you really think that's a difference-maker? No, I don't either.

I wasn‘t talking about one player. Look at the stats. The SEC lead in 2021. They lead in 2020. They lead in 2019. They consistently have great players and play a game that fans enjoy watching.

They have probably the best talent overall and it may or may not lead to Ws, but you can’t deny their impact on the game. Peace out.

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

I have not said that the SEC isn't a good brand. What I have been saying is that the marketing and the hype about the SEC is far above what the SEC actually is. (That is true about marketing in general). Some people in this thread are spouting the marketing hype as though it is fact.

Well let’s see how long it takes another SEC team outside of Bama to win a Natty vs. how long it takes another ACC team outside of Bama to win a Natty, or how long it takes another BIG team outside of Ohio St. to win a Natty. We’ve seen how it has worked in reverse - LSU 2019, FSU 2013, and Michigan 1997.