Do Pitchers Get Better Year With Experience

MWBATL

Helluva Engineer
Messages
6,506
Thought I'd take a look at pitching performances year over year between 2017 and 2018 to get an impression on whether pitchers improve at GT. Many seem to think that simply another year on the mound will make a pitcher somehow better. I was not at all sure so wanted to look at results. Here is what I found:

GUYS WHOSE STATS LOOKED BETTER:
Xavion Curry 4.18 ERA after 5.23 ERA in his frosh year
Connor Thomas 3.34 ERA after an 11.32 ERA in his frosh season (wow.....just, wow)
Andy Archer 3.64 ERA after a 4.82 ERA
Robert Winborne 4.50 ERA after a 7.78 ERA (both years not many innings)

GUYS WHOSE STATS LOOKED WORSE
Jake Lee 9.68 ERA after a 6.10 ERA (not nearly as many innings in 2018 but with that ERA, you can see why...)
Jared Datoc 4.86 ERA after a 3.77 ERA (again, fewer innings in 2018)
Micah Carpenter 3.94 ERA after a 2.56 ERA
Bailey Combs 6.10 ERA after a 5.21 ERA
Keyton Gibson 8.10 ERA after a 5.94 ERA (but the WHIP was 1.68 after being 1.61 in 2017)

In some cases, for those pitchers who really did not get a ton of innings, the change in ERA isn't statistically significant. You could probably argue that guys like Combs, Carpenter, Datoc, Gibson and even Archer actually performed at the same level in both years. It looks to me like Curry, Thomas and Winborne improved....while I would argue that Lee regressed.

So, of the nine pitchers who had enough innings on both years to have some decent sense of things....3 improved, 1 regressed and 5 were about the same. I am not so thoroughly convinced that another year automatically means better performance. Seems kinda hit to miss to me...some guys wind up "getting it" and making some big strides, while others.....don't.

This may not surprise anyone, but i have noticed we have a tendency as a fan base to say our pitchers will improve from their frosh to soph years because of the experience, and it just is not something you can count on.....
 

RoosterJacket

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
638
Looking at some other stats---Batting avg against and WHIP. Only 5 pitchers improved in BAA: Curry, Thomas, Combs, Winborne, and Gibson. Only 5 improved in WHIP: Curry, Thomas, Carpenter, Combs, and Winborne. Take all this for what its worth.

2017 b/avg whip 2018 b/avg whip
Curry .293 1.56 .224 1.10
Thomas .381 2.42 .241 1.03
Datoc .271 1.38 .338 1.62
Lee .264 1.39 .369 2.04
Carpenter .244 1.44 .268 1.25
Archer .206 1.18 (9.1 ip) .242 1.28
Combs .316 1.84 .250 1.55 (10.1 ip)
Hughes .266 1.89 .309 2.28
Winborne .353 1.98 .290 1.50
Gibson .266 1.61 .254 1.68
 

GTNavyNuke

Helluva Engineer
Featured Member
Messages
10,056
Location
Williamsburg Virginia
Good posts. Most of our pitchers didn't get better last year from the stats above.

One other key metric of whether a pitcher is getting better I think can be inferred from Innings Pitched. The idea is that if the pitcher is used more he is getting better.

Given that, we had 5 (1/3) out of 15 pitchers progress from last year. So 2/3 didn't. I don't know how other teams do, but the results just haven't been there

Here's the listing comparing pitchers by IP in 2017 to 2018:
Player 2017IP 2018 IP
Zac Ryan 46.0, N/A Drafted
Jared Datoc 57.1, 33.1; Regressed as season went on.
Ben Schniederjans 42.2, 7.0; Regressed
Xzavion Curry 82.2, 92.2: Progressed
Jake Lee 51.2, 17.2; Regressed
----------
Micah Carpenter 31.2, 16.0; Regressed
Burton Dulaney 6.2, 0; Gone, regressed
Ben Parr 8.2, NA. Graduated
Jay Shadday 38.1, o; Gone, regressed.
Andy Archer 9.1, 47.0: Progressed
Bailey Combs 19.0, 10.1; Regressed
Jonathan Hughes 25.1, 16.2; Regressed
Robert Winborne 19.2, 16.0; Didn't progress.
Keyton Gibson 36.2, 16.2; Regressed
Connor Thomas 10.1, 94.0; Progressed and our best pitcher.
Jonathan King 3.1, NA; Graduated.
Garrett Gooden 4.1, 0; Injured, regressed.
Nick Wilhite 0.1, NA; Not really a pitcher.
Tristan English 0, 52.0; Made the season bearable with X, CT and AA.
 

THWG

Helluva Engineer
Messages
4,155
Good posts. Most of our pitchers didn't get better last year from the stats above.

One other key metric of whether a pitcher is getting better I think can be inferred from Innings Pitched. The idea is that if the pitcher is used more he is getting better.

Given that, we had 5 (1/3) out of 15 pitchers progress from last year. So 2/3 didn't. I don't know how other teams do, but the results just haven't been there

Here's the listing comparing pitchers by IP in 2017 to 2018:
Player 2017IP 2018 IP
Zac Ryan 46.0, N/A Drafted
Jared Datoc 57.1, 33.1; Regressed as season went on.
Ben Schniederjans 42.2, 7.0; Regressed
Xzavion Curry 82.2, 92.2: Progressed
Jake Lee 51.2, 17.2; Regressed
----------
Micah Carpenter 31.2, 16.0; Regressed
Burton Dulaney 6.2, 0; Gone, regressed
Ben Parr 8.2, NA. Graduated
Jay Shadday 38.1, o; Gone, regressed.
Andy Archer 9.1, 47.0: Progressed
Bailey Combs 19.0, 10.1; Regressed
Jonathan Hughes 25.1, 16.2; Regressed
Robert Winborne 19.2, 16.0; Didn't progress.
Keyton Gibson 36.2, 16.2; Regressed
Connor Thomas 10.1, 94.0; Progressed and our best pitcher.
Jonathan King 3.1, NA; Graduated.
Garrett Gooden 4.1, 0; Injured, regressed.
Nick Wilhite 0.1, NA; Not really a pitcher.
Tristan English 0, 52.0; Made the season bearable with X, CT and AA.
I'd put an asterisk next to Carpenter though because I don't think that he ever fully got healthy this year.
 

GTNavyNuke

Helluva Engineer
Featured Member
Messages
10,056
Location
Williamsburg Virginia
I'd put an asterisk next to Carpenter though because I don't think that he ever fully got healthy this year.

You can put an asterisk next to several like Hughes who never recovered his control after surgery.

It's the overall picture, and was the same the year before I think, where our pitchers in general don't get better year to year. Like I said, I don't know the stats for other teams and the "attrition" rate is probably very high for them too. Bu this is not a positive endorsement for our pitching coaching and development.

Maybe next year things will be different.
 

dawgbasher

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
125
The appearance is that more pitchers at Tech regress rather than improve. Has been this way for a long time & I don't expect it to change. About the best we can hope for is 1 pitcher per year improve & be able to give quality innings. Beyond belief that we can not recruit nor develop pitchers nor hold accountable those who are responsible for these two areas.
 

senoiajacket

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,128
Looking at some other stats---Batting avg against and WHIP. Only 5 pitchers improved in BAA: Curry, Thomas, Combs, Winborne, and Gibson. Only 5 improved in WHIP: Curry, Thomas, Carpenter, Combs, and Winborne. Take all this for what its worth.

2017 b/avg whip 2018 b/avg whip
Curry .293 1.56 .224 1.10
Thomas .381 2.42 .241 1.03
Datoc .271 1.38 .338 1.62
Lee .264 1.39 .369 2.04
Carpenter .244 1.44 .268 1.25
Archer .206 1.18 (9.1 ip) .242 1.28
Combs .316 1.84 .250 1.55 (10.1 ip)
Hughes .266 1.89 .309 2.28
Winborne .353 1.98 .290 1.50
Gibson .266 1.61 .254 1.68

It's really difficult (for me) to look at these numbers and make a general judgement on if a pitching staff gets better, because they are all individuals at different stages of their development.

X is probably the easiest to see and understand the advancement in. The raw ability was there from the start and I think everyone saw it. A years worth of experience, learning how to pitch at this level, confidence and maturity has resulted in some pretty fabulous improvement. Keep in mind that X didnt pitch in the summer league, he only played in the field. So to me, this points to the a high possibility that he "got better" as a result of instruction he was getting at Tech.

I don't even remember CT pitching in 2017!! He only pitched 10 innings. So, obviously, he progressed. Do you give credit to our staff for that? They have to get some credit I would think.

Maybe guys like Lee were just "misses" in the recruiting process.

The guy I dont get is Datoc. Good last year, good up until about NCSTATE this year ..... then ..... nothing. What do you attribute that to?
 

MWBATL

Helluva Engineer
Messages
6,506
I agree with @senoiajacket that the data is not all one sided. Clearly, not only last year with CT, but in the last few seasons there have been one or two guys each year who seemed to really improve and develop (Brandon Gold jumps to mind). But, I was trying to make the point, that, after looking at the data, it was only 1-2 (maybe 3) guys each year who seemed to really make progress...NOT the whole staff. Some on here seem to think that we will be better at pitching next year simply because we have a lot of guys returning, and I am not at all sure we will leap as far as we need to given the abyss we have been in recently....
 

gtbeak

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
529
I am hopeful that none of the top 6 or 7 from this year (CT, X, English, Archer, Hurter, Carpenter, Winbourne) regress or get arm injuries. Then, if we can see jumps from Hugh Chapman and Will Shirah, plus the addition of Bartnicki, that would be a solid staff. I don't expect to get an improvement from Hughes, I think that boat has sailed, but one can dream.
 

THWG

Helluva Engineer
Messages
4,155
I am hopeful that none of the top 6 or 7 from this year (CT, X, English, Archer, Hurter, Carpenter, Winbourne) regress or get arm injuries. Then, if we can see jumps from Hugh Chapman and Will Shirah, plus the addition of Bartnicki, that would be a solid staff. I don't expect to get an improvement from Hughes, I think that boat has sailed, but one can dream.
The only thing that gives me hope about Hughes is his command was better his last 2 or 3 outings. If he can get on a good summer team and hone in his command even more, then he could turn it around.
 

MWBATL

Helluva Engineer
Messages
6,506
The only thing that gives me hope about Hughes is his command was better his last 2 or 3 outings. If he can get on a good summer team and hone in his command even more, then he could turn it around.
There is always hope. I have always heard his stuff was great if he could just recover his control......
 

THWG

Helluva Engineer
Messages
4,155
There is always hope. I have always heard his stuff was great if he could just recover his control......
Exactly, this is why he is my wildcard. He has good enough stuff where he could be the closer next year, if he just finds his command.
 

GTNavyNuke

Helluva Engineer
Featured Member
Messages
10,056
Location
Williamsburg Virginia
I hope some of these guys do summer ball to develop. Beesball.com used to follow this pretty closely but so far nothing. Anyone have any insight?

This is a change in my thinking that we should have our pitchers stay away from summer ball to avoid overuse. But given our pitching coaching results, I think it's better for them to get some different coaching. Maybe Jake can get fixed, I really thought he was going to be a starter/ reliable reliever by now.
 

RoosterJacket

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
638
I hope some of these guys do summer ball to develop. Beesball.com used to follow this pretty closely but so far nothing. Anyone have any insight?

This is a change in my thinking that we should have our pitchers stay away from summer ball to avoid overuse. But given our pitching coaching results, I think it's better for them to get some different coaching. Maybe Jake can get fixed, I really thought he was going to be a starter/ reliable reliever by now.
I think we have a decent amount of kids up in the Cape Cod League this summer. Curry, English, McCann, A. Wilhite, Serratos, Murray, Archer and Colin Hall are ones I think I’ve seen as definitely up there. There may be a couple more.
 

GTNavyNuke

Helluva Engineer
Featured Member
Messages
10,056
Location
Williamsburg Virginia
I think we have a decent amount of kids up in the Cape Cod League this summer. Curry, English, McCann, A. Wilhite, Serratos, Murray, Archer and Colin Hall are ones I think I’ve seen as definitely up there. There may be a couple more.

Wow, that's a lot. Glad to see it. Last year we only had Bart, Stallings and Gibson in Cape Cod (supposed to be the most elite league).
http://beesball.com/summer2017.html
 

Lagrangejacket

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
335
If you want it in graphical form:

8d73DQ.jpg


Caveats:
I included only 2016-2018 since before that the stats on the GT website were posted in a different format (I did this programmatically in python/R).
Only used guys with at least 5.0 IP in 2 0f the 3 years
WHIP will be slightly off since I didn't change to fraction form (ie., I used '92.2' for the denominator of IP for Curry instead of 92.667)
 

GTNavyNuke

Helluva Engineer
Featured Member
Messages
10,056
Location
Williamsburg Virginia
If you want it in graphical form:

8d73DQ.jpg


Caveats:
I included only 2016-2018 since before that the stats on the GT website were posted in a different format (I did this programmatically in python/R).
Only used guys with at least 5.0 IP in 2 0f the 3 years
WHIP will be slightly off since I didn't change to fraction form (ie., I used '92.2' for the denominator of IP for Curry instead of 92.667)

Neat. Possible to do averages / trendlines? Like for players 2016 to 2017 with data, 2017 to 2018 with data and finally 2016 to 2018 with data?

Also if add in IP, will show how much Hall / Howell trusted the player to come in. Some will be deceiving, like Datoc, who did well until they didn't and blew up their averages.:banghead:
 

Lagrangejacket

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
335
Neat. Possible to do averages / trendlines? Like for players 2016 to 2017 with data, 2017 to 2018 with data and finally 2016 to 2018 with data?

Also if add in IP, will show how much Hall / Howell trusted the player to come in. Some will be deceiving, like Datoc, who did well until they didn't and blew up their averages.:banghead:

Here's IP and also (because I was curious) HBP/IP. One thing our guys have gotten better at the past 2 years is beaning people o_O

U4Dqch.jpg
 
Top