Conference Realignment

[SOWEGA Jacket]

You and @Northeast Stinger might be right, but I don't think so. Tell me what the ACC could have done to get FSU into the playoffs that you are certain they failed to do.

This issue has very little to do with “today”. As another poster pointed out, all members of the ACC are reaping what the ACC has allowed to happen over a 3 decade time span. As we all saw, there was nothing the ACC could have done because the ACC is an afterthought. This moment should have opened everyone’s eyes but I see smart GT folks repeating the media talking points even while saying they can’t stand ESPN. If a program like FSU who was a top 5 program for a 20 year span, with Natties, and Heisman winners can simply be laughed at because of their conference I can only imagine what they would do with the rest of us.

The battle is over. The ACC lost so its time to disband and form up new. Let’s just hope the media wants a team in Atlanta.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Although there was no playoff then, Auburn in 2004 was undefeated with a SEC title and was left out of the championship game.

2004 has its own Wikipedia page due to all the complications, including 5 undefeated teams and no playoff system. The coaches poll helped determine which two undefeated teams would play, pitting number 1 against number 2.

 

[Techwood Relict]

The discussion of GT and B1G reminds me of the saying about conference expansion: Fans pick their favorite schools, school presidents pick conference members. School presidents have totally different requirements for conference memberships than fans.

B1G school presidents invited GT to join a decade ago (from 2010-2012). Not much has changed since then. If anything, there are factors that have moved even more in GT's favor.

GT is still the same athletic program, but with better leadership. Football, we're still a 7ish win team with special seasons of 10+ wins every 4-5 years. Basketball is still the same program that's still trying find our glory years of the 90's and early 2000's. Both programs are now looking at far brighter days than what's been going on the last few seasons.

B1G wants to be in the South. Period. The Southeast is quickly becoming an economic powerhouse for the US. Which means the population is shifting to this area. Atlanta has the biggest concentration of B1G alumni in the South, and that has grown even more since 2012. Think about that when you talk about carriage fees and subscribers to the B1G network. Oh, did anyone mention that Atlanta is the biggest media market in the South? The value of the ACC media contract would plummet without GT and Atlanta. The ACC knew that and talked our shortsighted President out of leaving the ACC (seriously, read the AJC interview with former President Peterson...it will make your blood boil). Since 2012, the Atlanta media market has grown, economic value has grown, population has grown. All of which made GT attractive in 2012 has gotten even stronger in 2023, and will continue to get stronger over the next few decades.

You think Media networks think about that?

The big city winners and losers of the Fortune 500: Why Houston, Atlanta and Dallas are (almost) beating New York and Chicago

New York and Chicago have each declined more than 70% since the early days of the Fortune 500.

finance.yahoo.com

From an athletic standpoint, speaking specifically about football (it's the main driver of expansion), as bad as were under CGC, GT is still one of the better programs in the ACC:


View attachment 15401

Think about that graphic. Even with the CGC years, GT is still within a striking distance of the same winning percentage of FSU...that team making all the noise right now. Also, look at the discussed B1G targets (GT, FSU, Miami, UNC, UVA). Outside of FSU, GT has more conference championships than all of them, and has a better winning percentage than all but FSU and Miami.

School Presidents understand that a school's athletic fortunes can change. GT has historically been an above average to good program:

Winsipedia - College football ALL-TIME RECORD (WINNING %) (*minimum 100 games) rankings

Winsipedia - List and chart/infographic of schools and teams with the best ALL-TIME RECORD (WINNING %) (*minimum 100 games) in college football history

www.winsipedia.com

In terms of the B1G, GT is in the same winning band as Wisconsin/UCLA/Mich State/Minnesota. We've been a better program than Iowa/Minnesota/Maryland/Purdue/Illinois/Northwestern/Indiana. For those that don't think GT can be competitive in the B1G, I suggest you look closer. GT will continue to do what GT has always done: win 6-8 games a season, and enjoy a special season every 4-5 years.

There's also the intangible quality of a school that B1G Presidents look at, and for the B1G, it's an important issue.



This is one of the big reasons B1G Presidents have coveted GT for years. Combine that with all of the above, and you don't have to go far at all into the wish bag of what makes a school attractive to the B1G conference. GT checks all the boxes...even if our own fans don't think so.

There's a reason why GT was invited a decade ago, and you don't have to look too hard to see why GT may actually be in a stronger position now than we were then.

I've offered Techster's assistant a raise and a work from home option. Waiting on an answer.

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

Anyone know any judges we could bribe to ask FSU’s representatives why they think the ACC is holding them back when they can’t even consistently win in the ACC anymore?

ACC should sue them, they had one job!

This is just hilarious. So a team that has won the ACC 16 out of their 32 chances (50% clip) is being mocked? A team that just went undefeated in the conference no less. Some of you must be very young fans who have no sense of history before 2010 or so. FSU, like Bama and any other big boy program, made some poor choices (letting Bowden stick around to long and hiring Taggert) which cost them a decade. But look how quickly Norvell (who again was mocked on this board) turned them around. That’s what big boy programs do. Little boy programs force Hall of Fame coaches out the door in order to hire coaches who have fun spring games. At least we finally had a sensible school President who hired JBatt who understands all this. I’m sure we already have our landing spot in place. If not, we are going to lose every person worth a darn associated with athletics (JBatt, Faulkner, Key, Wade, Damon, Ramsey, etc). But I’m sure we’ll have Hall sticking around for his yearly check.

 

[Vespidae]

This issue has very little to do with “today”. As another poster pointed out, all members of the ACC are reaping what the ACC has allowed to happen over a 3 decade time span. As we all saw, there was nothing the ACC could have done because the ACC is an afterthought. This moment should have opened everyone’s eyes but I see smart GT folks repeating the media talking points even while saying they can’t stand ESPN. If a program like FSU who was a top 5 program for a 20 year span, with Natties, and Heisman winners can simply be laughed at because of their conference I can only imagine what they would do with the rest of us.

The battle is over. The ACC lost so its time to disband and form up new. Let’s just hope the media wants a team in Atlanta.

FSU finished in the Top Five (AP poll) twice in the last 20 years. In the last 10 years, the ACC produced 3 ”national championships“ … Clemson (2) and FSU (1). More than any conference but the SEC.

 

[UgaBlows]

Although there was no playoff then, Auburn in 2004 was undefeated with a SEC title and was left out of the championship game.

Partially because they backed out of playing us that season and hurt their SoS

 

[cpf2001]

This is just hilarious. So a team that has won the ACC 16 out of their 32 chances (50% clip) is being mocked? A team that just went undefeated in the conference no less. Some of you must be very young fans who have no sense of history before 2010 or so. FSU, like Bama and any other big boy program, made some poor choices (letting Bowden stick around to long and hiring Taggert) which cost them a decade. But look how quickly Norvell (who again was mocked on this board) turned them around. That’s what big boy programs do. Little boy programs force Hall of Fame coaches out the door in order to hire coaches who have fun spring games. At least we finally had a sensible school President who hired JBatt who understands all this. I’m sure we already have our landing spot in place. If not, we are going to lose every person worth a darn associated with athletics (JBatt, Faulkner, Key, Wade, Damon, Ramsey, etc). But I’m sure we’ll have Hall sticking around for his yearly check.

Guess you missed the “anymore.” They were great, then they turned into a team that is only occasionally a national contender.

If FSU was still FSU they wouldn’t be in this situation (their backup QB probably would’ve crushed UF for starters). They certainly wouldn’t be behind Washington if they were still who they think they are. They want to put all the blame on the conference, but they’ve been a has-been for a decade and even that time was the result of a singular talent more than a great program like Bowden had in the 90s.

And the truth is that they were brought in, like Miami and VT later, to try to prevent the very situation we’re in now.

The ACC is incompetent in many ways but you can’t say they didn’t see the need to shore up the football reputation. They just failed at it, in large part because FSU, Miami, and VT fell off. GT too, but not from as high a peak in recent memory.

The ACC could’ve been much better at PR but was anyone else available to actually get better on the field with? Were Texas/OU realistic options? Or was the FSU/Miami/VT bet the right bet, just with the wrong results?

EDIT: it’s precisely remembering how good FSU was for so long that makes it so fun to see them so frustrated now. They’re complaining about future revenue differences but the truth is they ****ed up long before that, and for THAT they only have themselves to blame.

 

[forensicbuzz]

Not sure what you are disagreeing with. We both are saying there is no way the SEC was going to get left out, no matter what the scenario was or how many times the narrative had to change to make that happen.

My point is that the SEC has been relentless for decades pushing a narrative and promoting its teams that puts them in the driver’s seat whenever their is a close choice to be made by writers, pollsters and playoff committees.

They’ve worked the refs a long time. Just wish the ACC had done that.

My disagreement is that it was because the ACC was weak. They absolutely said it was because of the QB. Then, when the heat turned up, they pointed to the "weak" schedule. I think if the QB wasn't out, it would have been Washington on the chopping block. The PAC12 is looked upon as the lowest of the P5 conference, by far, and if FSU was at full strength, they wouldn't have been left out. All the talk about FSU being left out because they play in the ACC is hooey. Go back, the reason given by CFP was ALL about the QB, not the conference.

 

[GoJacketsInRaleigh]

This is just hilarious. So a team that has won the ACC 16 out of their 32 chances (50% clip) is being mocked? A team that just went undefeated in the conference no less. Some of you must be very young fans who have no sense of history before 2010 or so. FSU, like Bama and any other big boy program, made some poor choices (letting Bowden stick around to long and hiring Taggert) which cost them a decade. But look how quickly Norvell (who again was mocked on this board) turned them around. That’s what big boy programs do. Little boy programs force Hall of Fame coaches out the door in order to hire coaches who have fun spring games. At least we finally had a sensible school President who hired JBatt who understands all this. I’m sure we already have our landing spot in place. If not, we are going to lose every person worth a darn associated with athletics (JBatt, Faulkner, Key, Wade, Damon, Ramsey, etc). But I’m sure we’ll have Hall sticking around for his yearly check.

Nebraska is a national power too, right?

 

[orientalnc]

This is just hilarious. So a team that has won the ACC 16 out of their 32 chances (50% clip) is being mocked? A team that just went undefeated in the conference no less. Some of you must be very young fans who have no sense of history before 2010 or so. FSU, like Bama and any other big boy program, made some poor choices (letting Bowden stick around to long and hiring Taggert) which cost them a decade. But look how quickly Norvell (who again was mocked on this board) turned them around. That’s what big boy programs do. Little boy programs force Hall of Fame coaches out the door in order to hire coaches who have fun spring games. At least we finally had a sensible school President who hired JBatt who understands all this. I’m sure we already have our landing spot in place. If not, we are going to lose every person worth a darn associated with athletics (JBatt, Faulkner, Key, Wade, Damon, Ramsey, etc). But I’m sure we’ll have Hall sticking around for his yearly check.

I actually think the CFP has the four best teams in the playoffs. FSU is screaming foul play now, but think about the nastiness that would have taken oover the free world if Alabama had been denied. "You can't have a national championship playoff with out the SEC champ." The optics of leaving FSU out are terrible, but I don't think the ACC could have done anything now, or in the past 3 decades, to change the impression that FSU was not as good without their star QB. And, the truth is, that's correct. We don't like it, but the committee had to make a decision that was going to anger a bunch of people no what they decided.

 

[Root4GT]

If I may speak for him, what the ACC needed to do to get FSU in the playoffs they should have started doing 30 years ago. The SEC came up with a consistent narrative that they pushed through good seasons and bad seasons. The B1G also was consistent with their brand. Both conferences showed they were also willing to play hardball if the media didn’t fawn over them or the refs screwed up a game or the polls slighted them or TV contracts weren’t sufficient or…..the track record is extensive and consistent.

Again, I am willing for someone to talk me off this ledge but my gut level feeling is that leadership has been relentlessly weak which has insured that every team is on its own and any team that doesn’t have a coach, staff and administration spitting fire is going to get kicked in the teeth, either by the conference or the national media.

As pointed out many times, the SEC was down this year (the ACC owned them in head to head) and it didn’t even put a dent in the narrative. Had the SEC not done what they’ve done for 40 years, if they had waited until this year to argue that the SEC champ could in no way be left out of the playoffs, then they would just be more like the ACC with teams that get slighted, teams that don’t get preseason rankings, and teams that are left to flounder without support.

Frankly the ACC has not had any elite teams less FSU 10 years ago and Clemson the past decade. That is what makes the narrative ring true to most fans. The SEC has dominated the BCS and CFP with elite teams. SU, UGS, Auburn and Alabama have all won NCs under the 2 systems. Alabama multiple times and UGA the past 2. The PAC and Big 12 have the same issue as the ACC in they haven't won the BIG games at season's end. The B1G to a lesser extent though they have gotten there more frequently. The ACC has been a one elite team conference for a decade now. That makes the SEC narrative fairly true.

 

[Root4GT]

FSU finished in the Top Five (AP poll) twice in the last 20 years. In the last 10 years, the ACC produced 3 ”national championships“ … Clemson (2) and FSU (1). More than any conference but the SEC.

How many did the SEC produce in the same period? That is why the ACC is considered inferior in football.

 

[Randy Carson]

It got Carson booted.

Excuse me?

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Frankly the ACC has not had any elite teams less FSU 10 years ago and Clemson the past decade. That is what makes the narrative ring true to most fans. The SEC has dominated the BCS and CFP with elite teams. SU, UGS, Auburn and Alabama have all won NCs under the 2 systems. Alabama multiple times and UGA the past 2. The PAC and Big 12 have the same issue as the ACC in they haven't won the BIG games at season's end. The B1G to a lesser extent though they have gotten there more frequently. The ACC has been a one elite team conference for a decade now. That makes the SEC narrative fairly true.

I believe that is partly a self fulfilling prophecy. But that’s an argument we can leave for another time.

My original point still has not had any serious rejoinders, that is, if the ACC is such an inferior conference then FSU absolutely should leave (and any other program that wants to get treated fairly on the national scene) and quit getting dragged down by the ACC.

As long as the national pundits practice guilt by association no ACC team will ever get a level of respect commensurate with their actual athletic ability.

 

[Randy Carson]

I actually think the CFP has the four best teams in the playoffs. FSU is screaming foul play now, but think about the nastiness that would have taken oover the free world if Alabama had been denied. "You can't have a national championship playoff with out the SEC champ." The optics of leaving FSU out are terrible, but I don't think the ACC could have done anything now, or in the past 3 decades, to change the impression that FSU was not as good without their star QB. And, the truth is, that's correct. We don't like it, but the committee had to make a decision that was going to anger a bunch of people no what they decided.

I'm not going to argue that the four most talented teams are playing in the CFP (though OSU might have something to say about that).

I'm going to argue that sometimes the reigning Olympic 100-meter champion false starts and misses the finals.

Georgia lost to Bama which lost to Texas. Texas is in.

FSU should have been.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Excuse me?

It’s a long story but the short version is that Carson was never loved by the Dodd devotees and players hated him. He made Tech go to the Peach Bowl in a year the players just wanted to go home to families for Christmas and forget a disappointing season. The players decided to make a mockery of the bowl game and teach Carson a lesson. I was at the game (driving rain storm and muddy field) sitting near one of the end zones. A Tech player had a sure interception in the end zone but pretended to fumble it and just kind of handed it to a Mississippi receiver for an Ole Miss touchdown. It was awful to watch and we left before the game ended. Carson was fired shortly after the game.

 

[iceeater1969]

I'm not going to argue that the four most talented teams are playing in the CFP (though OSU might have something to say about that).

I'm going to argue that sometimes the reigning Olympic 100-meter champion false starts and misses the finals.

Georgia lost to Bama which lost to Texas. Texas is in.

FSU should have been.

So
OU beat Texas,
OSU beat OU,
UCF beat OSU
and.
Gt beat UCF

Logic!

 

[Vespidae]

How many did the SEC produce in the same period? That is why the ACC is considered inferior in football.

My comment is a direct rebuttal that FSU is a Top 5 program. It it isn’t and hasn’t been for some time. As to whether the ACC is an inferior conference… draw your own conclusions.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

And…what eventually happens is what always seems to happen. Justifiable outrage over an excellent undefeated team getting snubbed slowly fades and gets replaced by the SEC narrative which has been blaring from the public address systems for 40 years.

If I’m UCF I claim my national championship of a few years back with a clear conscience. If I’m FSU I get the hell out of the ACC before I get screwed again.

 

[cpf2001]

Eh, USC played their game and got their split title and nobody tried to take it away. FSU seems to be more of the “cry and try to take out ball and go home” mindset, so I’m sure if they lose to UGA they’ll be full of excuses too about how it doesn’t mean anything that Travis got hurt.

I don’t particularly care for the ACC but FSU is delusional if they think they’d be better off this year in the SEC or Big 10 (especially post-injury) and delusional if they blame the ACC for them not being who they were 20 years ago.