Conference Realignment

[slugboy]

I think both sides have competent legal teams. The problem FSU has is the GOR they signed. Their lawyers are like me when I was a college student trying to score with the females at the student center. If my first line failed, I tried another, and another, and another, until at last I gave up or the target female decided it was time for her next class. I don't blame the FSU lawyers for trying this latest tactic, but they can't make the GOR go away.

In arguments in front of a judge to answer whether the court case in NC should proceed, the ACC lawyers were unable to answer whether the filing and case met the standard of material impact—and if so, would have required a vote of the members other than FSU.

 

[RonJohn]

In arguments in front of a judge to answer whether the court case in NC should proceed, the ACC lawyers were unable to answer whether the filing and case met the standard of material impact—and if so, would have required a vote of the members other than FSU.

Is that the case? Going just by memory, which is a very bad thing, I thought that the ACC lawyers said that the original filing was based on contract language and didn't enumerate any actual harms, so it didn't have material impact. That the amended filing received authorization because it included actual harms that FSU is causing and does have material impact.

I haven't read the Clemson filing. I haven't read the FSU response to the ACC response to the FSU lawsuit in Florida. I think the original FSU complaint was so bad it was like a joke legal filing. I think none of the complaints make any real legal sense, except the updated ACC complaint, because they are all arguing about what might happen if a member leaves the ACC. I don't think courts usually make decisions about ending a contract, until the contract is broken or ended. Courts seem to try very hard to stay out of civil cases, even when there is actual harm that needs to be remedied. They seem want parties to settle those claims on their own if there is any possibility of doing it outside of the courts.

The amended ACC complaint actually alleges breeches of contract and torts by FSU that cause monetary harm to the ACC. Those are, in my non-lawyer opinion, the only things that have been filed that any court should rule upon. If FSU really wants a court to decide if the exit fee is too high, and whether the ACC really owns their media rights, they should withdraw from the conference and file a lawsuit with actual standing to claim harm.

 

[orientalnc]

In arguments in front of a judge to answer whether the court case in NC should proceed, the ACC lawyers were unable to answer whether the filing and case met the standard of material impact—and if so, would have required a vote of the members other than FSU.

That is fair, but the ACC management considered that requirement and decided the first lawsuit was not material. And, there is no law requiring the vote. It is strictly an internal process within the ACC. While it's reasonable to disagree with the decision, it was also very reasonable to agree. I do not think courts should interfere with the administration of voluntary associations and how their members interact with each other. The FSU lawyers could not get around that problem because the judge pretty much held that same opinion.

 

[slugboy]

Is that the case? Going just by memory, which is a very bad thing, I thought that the ACC lawyers said that the original filing was based on contract language and didn't enumerate any actual harms, so it didn't have material impact. That the amended filing received authorization because it included actual harms that FSU is causing and does have material impact.

I haven't read the Clemson filing. I haven't read the FSU response to the ACC response to the FSU lawsuit in Florida. I think the original FSU complaint was so bad it was like a joke legal filing. I think none of the complaints make any real legal sense, except the updated ACC complaint, because they are all arguing about what might happen if a member leaves the ACC. I don't think courts usually make decisions about ending a contract, until the contract is broken or ended. Courts seem to try very hard to stay out of civil cases, even when there is actual harm that needs to be remedied. They seem want parties to settle those claims on their own if there is any possibility of doing it outside of the courts.

The amended ACC complaint actually alleges breeches of contract and torts by FSU that cause monetary harm to the ACC. Those are, in my non-lawyer opinion, the only things that have been filed that any court should rule upon. If FSU really wants a court to decide if the exit fee is too high, and whether the ACC really owns their media rights, they should withdraw from the conference and file a lawsuit with actual standing to claim harm.

I’m trying to find it now, but it’s a catch-22
It’s either:
ACC Attorney: “ There’s no material impact”
Judge: “Then why are we in court?”

Vs
ACC Attorney: “There is material impact on the conference and the membership”
Judge: “Then why didn’t you follow your bylaws and vote?”

The exchange was more like
Judge: “is there material impact or not?”
ACC Attorney: “well, um, you see…”

Like @orientalnc said, it sounds like the judge might decide “yes, ACC, you didn’t follow your own rules. However, it’s minor and you still have standing to sue”

The judge (Bledsoe) will make a ruling before April 9th, which is when the Florida case is set to begin. So, we don’t know yet (unless there’s a more recent announcement I haven’t seen).

No resolution yet on ACC-FSU lawsuit jurisdiction

Attorneys for the ACC and Florida State on Friday in a Mecklenburg County (N.C.) courtroom argued about jurisdiction over dueling lawsuits from last December and whether documents pertaining to broadcasting rights between the ACC and ESPN should be unsealed.

www.sportsbusinessjournal.com

 

[RonJohn]

I’m trying to find it now, but it’s a catch-22
It’s either:
ACC Attorney: “ There’s no material impact”
Judge: “Then why are we in court?”

Vs
ACC Attorney: “There is material impact on the conference and the membership”
Judge: “Then why didn’t you follow your bylaws and vote?”

The exchange was more like
Judge: “is there material impact or not?”
ACC Attorney: “well, um, you see…”

I don't recall it being quite that farcical, but I am relying purely on memory. As I recall, it was something like the original filing was about a contract dispute which had no monetary value, and as such no material impact. While the second filing included torts that do have a material impact. Not the strongest argument in my opinion, since they are saying they filed a lawsuit claiming no damages, but not quite the stuttering response you remember.

I think I am ready for FSU to borrow $1 billion to pay the rest of the conference and then just leave.

 

[orientalnc]

I’m not sure if FSU’s lawyers are geniuses or desperate. I’m also not sure about the ACC lawyers.

DocumentCloud

www.documentcloud.org

I also feel like the legal filings need some of the same labels as Sandía used for nuclear waste storage

Long-term nuclear waste warning messages - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I finally had a chance to talk too my UNC (retired lawyer) neighbor about this latest motion filed by FSU in Leon County.

This is FSU's reply to the ACC motion to stay discovery until after the NC case is done. FSU says it's been four months and the ACC is making claims in their filings about the ESPN contract that FSU and the court do not have. ESPN and the ACC have not yet made a motion in Leon County to seal the ESPN contract, but my neighbor said they will likely do that before the April 9 hearing.

He said none of this is remarkable at this point. Lawyers for both sides are making requests of the court that are likely to be denied. But they have to do this to establish rulings that might be appealed later. He also said the NC judge has the immediate future of the FL case in his control. It is very likely the FL court does not want to be competing with the NC court for lawyers' time and asking for filings and court appearances in conflict with each other. If the NC goes forward, the FL case is almost certain to wait. This is why the FSU attorneys were trying to get the NC court to rule the ACC's initial motion was premature and should be nullified, therefore the amended filing is also nullified.

 

[bobongo]

I finally had a chance to talk too my UNC (retired lawyer) neighbor about this latest motion filed by FSU in Leon County.

This is FSU's reply to the ACC motion to stay discovery until after the NC case is done. FSU says it's been four months and the ACC is making claims in their filings about the ESPN contract that FSU and the court do not have. ESPN and the ACC have not yet made a motion in Leon County to seal the ESPN contract, but my neighbor said they will likely do that before the April 9 hearing.

He said none of this is remarkable at this point. Lawyers for both sides are making requests of the court that are likely to be denied. But they have to do this to establish rulings that might be appealed later. He also said the NC judge has the immediate future of the FL case in his control. It is very likely the FL court does not want to be competing with the NC court for lawyers' time and asking for filings and court appearances in conflict with each other. If the NC goes forward, the FL case is almost certain to wait. This is why the FSU attorneys were trying to get the NC court to rule the ACC's initial motion was premature and should be nullified, therefore the amended filing is also nullified.

Lordy. I'm glad someone is keeping up with the premature motions of the wheels of justice. Wake me in ten years when it's all over...

 

[slugboy]

I finally had a chance to talk too my UNC (retired lawyer) neighbor about this latest motion filed by FSU in Leon County.

This is FSU's reply to the ACC motion to stay discovery until after the NC case is done. FSU says it's been four months and the ACC is making claims in their filings about the ESPN contract that FSU and the court do not have. ESPN and the ACC have not yet made a motion in Leon County to seal the ESPN contract, but my neighbor said they will likely do that before the April 9 hearing.

He said none of this is remarkable at this point. Lawyers for both sides are making requests of the court that are likely to be denied. But they have to do this to establish rulings that might be appealed later. He also said the NC judge has the immediate future of the FL case in his control. It is very likely the FL court does not want to be competing with the NC court for lawyers' time and asking for filings and court appearances in conflict with each other. If the NC goes forward, the FL case is almost certain to wait. This is why the FSU attorneys were trying to get the NC court to rule the ACC's initial motion was premature and should be nullified, therefore the amended filing is also nullified.

I’ve seen a few lawyers comment that they wouldn’t sign a contract with a lawyer or an entity that had a dependency on a contract you couldn’t see or put your hands on. They say it’s legal, but it’s sleazy on the part of the ACC lawyers and ESPN (probably more ESPN, but the ACC and the conference lawyers are going along with it)

The Charlotte case can also nuke the jurisdiction of the Clemson case.

 

[orientalnc]

I’ve seen a few lawyers comment that they wouldn’t sign a contract with a lawyer or an entity that had a dependency on a contract you couldn’t see or put your hands on. They say it’s legal, but it’s sleazy on the part of the ACC lawyers and ESPN (probably more ESPN, but the ACC and the conference lawyers are going along with it)

The Charlotte case can also nuke the jurisdiction of the Clemson case.

This is not what happened in this case. The ACC and ESPN agreed to an extension of their existing media deal. Every conference member had access to the contract, and still does. But each had to sign a Non Disclosure Agreement with ESPN in order to see the agreement then and in the future. ESPN required the ACC to also extend their existing GOR for the term of the ESPN media agreement. There was nothing hidden or kept secret from the ACC members. What is at stake now is FSU's motion to make the ESPN contract evidence in Leon County. Florida law requires that it be an open record. If I understand what I was told this morning is that ESPN and the ACC are claiming FSU agreed to the NDA. Now they cannot now ask the court to disclose what FSU cannot.

 

[reckrider]

ACC should throw caution to the wind and merge with the Big East. Put a stake in the ground for basketball/academic superiority. Even ND benefits.

 

[Richard7125]

Conference expansion is 95%+ for football money. The other reasons people mention fall in the remaining 5%. So, at what point do you think a conference has too many teams? I’m still not sure why the Big10 felt guilty enough to add Washington and Oregon to get to 18 teams. Most likely because Wash/Ore are only getting a 50% share so the short term marginal revenue exceeds the short term marginal cost. At some point the marginal costs will exceed the marginal revenues.

 

[GTrob21]

Has anybody done the math if we don't add anybody when F$U and Clemson leave? The ESPN contract wouldn't break as we would still have the minimum numbers, you would get their exit fees and the increased share until 2036 when the contract is renegotiated. Financially it seems really good.

Add onto that, we will all have the joy of watching FSU and Clemson become middling 7-5, or 8-4 teams in the SEC.

I don't see a downside here.

 

[MountainBuzzMan]

Has anybody done the math if we don't add anybody when F$U and Clemson leave? The ESPN contract wouldn't break as we would still have the minimum numbers, you would get their exit fees and the increased share until 2036 when the contract is renegotiated. Financially it seems really good.

Add onto that, we will all have the joy of watching FSU and Clemson become middling 7-5, or 8-4 teams in the SEC.

I don't see a downside here.

its a very short term upside side and a long term downside as ESPN could chose not to renew and we will put our media package out to bid in just a few years with all the uncertainty that comes with that

 

[stinger78]

Has anybody done the math if we don't add anybody when F$U and Clemson leave? The ESPN contract wouldn't break as we would still have the minimum numbers, you would get their exit fees and the increased share until 2036 when the contract is renegotiated. Financially it seems really good.

Add onto that, we will all have the joy of watching FSU and Clemson become middling 7-5, or 8-4 teams in the SEC.

I don't see a downside here.

Of we don’t panic and add two more teams, then that money would be bonus money for the remaining teams..

 

[iceeater1969]

I think ND was big on why we added Cal , Stanford, and maybe SMU. Word is we got these schools for a good $

After FSU and Clemson leave , maybe ESPN will like them enough to can keep the ACC tv dollars ( also big 12 recently got more) . Might be part of a Clemson and FSU went to SEC package that keeps us whole for a time and lets ESPN STRENGTHEN its Flagship SEC network. All the while keeping the 800# ND in play.


The ACC schools w Cal, Stanford , SMU have giant wait list to get in. We have 17% accptance rate but a number of non acc schools ( big 12) have high acceptance rate Due to several events ( AI cut need for crappy degreed employees, drop in pool of kids going to cillege due to 2008 recession, hs football kess popular), some schools could have issues w overstaff, $$ till 2030s. Maybe our ACC is more sustainable (except wake, bc and maybe Syracuse in football). Also w more equal competition we can suprise in great games.

With everyone having much chance of an "Orange" bow), all teams alumni and fans can grow donations and fan enthusiasm. Kind of a reset.

Thinking selfishly, would love to have about 6 years of winning ball at Gt when cable, steaming , betting , and network tv guys say there is too much travel and still are too many crummy teams. Advertizers requires SEC / B1g , ACC, B12 to expunge the crummy teams to form multiple regional conference of 48 teams go into exciting playoffs like BB.

It sure would be nice for gt to have a special year in 2024 -win 50% of ND, VT, FSU, UNC, MIA, UGA & go to gator bowl with a giant gt crowd.

 

[gtbb]

Reading about all the conference re-aligment news over the last few years, it makes my head spin. All we can do is support the program, and hope that Key builds something that's competitive in whatever conference we're in. It could be that we end up being strong enough to warrant consideration for the Power 2. We do bring great academics, research, and geographic location. If we also have a strong program to go with all of that, it helps our chances. It will also help sell more tickets and pack the house better than we've done the last few years.

But if we don't get into the P2, then I'll still support us in whatever iteration of the ACC we're in.

At the end of the day, we're going to field a football team, and we're gonna play football.

 

[iceeater1969]

Just saw you tube talker, who says UNTIL after march madness we will not hear espn speak. He said that the sneak in OF the crummy WEST COAST AND SMALL TEXAS schools by june was not viewed as a plus by espn.
I had hoped it was a positive w ND and ESPN who are the key player.

Talker guy feels that 8 teams should vote to renegotiate and let chips fall where they may. He thinks we would be wiser to get 12 to vote to play 24 and split revenue while other deals are assembled.

WOULD BE GREAT TO HAVE 8 WIN SEASON.

(In 50 years of owning large epcm company, we always negotiated w our client = where the money comes from . Issues were negotiated - and we always got more work even if at reduced $ or under strict performance earned incentive program. The process built long term relationships
Survive and thrive.

I think Gt can make a great proposal.if it can accept incentive payments.

Its happening.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Just saw you tube talker, who says UNTIL after march madness we will not hear espn speak. He said that the sneak in OF the crummy WEST COAST AND SMALL TEXAS schools by june was not viewed as a plus by espn.
I had hoped it was a positive w ND and ESPN who are the key player.

Talker guy feels that 8 teams should vote to renegotiate and let chips fall where they may. He thinks we would be wiser to get 12 to vote to play 24 and split revenue while other deals are assembled.

WOULD BE GREAT TO HAVE 8 WIN SEASON.

(In 50 years of owning large epcm company, we always negotiated w our client = where the money comes from . Issues were negotiated - and we always got more work even if at reduced $ or under strict performance earned incentive program. The process built long term relationships
Survive and thrive.

I think Gt can make a great proposal.if it can accept incentive payments.

Its happening.

I’m not informed enough on this topic to be sure that I understand the full implications of what you are saying but it brings to mind the FSU and Clemson law suits.

Do you think FSU and Clemson were cognizant all along of larger sea changes and does this make their lawsuits more efficacious?

 

[orientalnc]

Just saw you tube talker, who says UNTIL after march madness we will not hear espn speak. He said that the sneak in OF the crummy WEST COAST AND SMALL TEXAS schools by june was not viewed as a plus by espn.
I had hoped it was a positive w ND and ESPN who are the key player.

Talker guy feels that 8 teams should vote to renegotiate and let chips fall where they may. He thinks we would be wiser to get 12 to vote to play 24 and split revenue while other deals are assembled.

WOULD BE GREAT TO HAVE 8 WIN SEASON.

(In 50 years of owning large epcm company, we always negotiated w our client = where the money comes from . Issues were negotiated - and we always got more work even if at reduced $ or under strict performance earned incentive program. The process built long term relationships
Survive and thrive.

I think Gt can make a great proposal.if it can accept incentive payments.

Its happening.

Who is this talker guy to whom you are referring?

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

Go to YouTube and watch the video from “college football addiction”. That’s probably what he’s talking about.