Coaching Philosophies and differing opinions...

Ibeeballin

GT Athlete
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4,947
@ATL1 Wasn't it refuted this year that you don't have to balanced to be successful (Auburn)?

From a philosophy standpoint, I'm still baffled on the coaching and development of the OLine. I know this group has been snake-bitten due to injuries and attrition (Gilbert transferring, Morgan Bailey not being able to stay healthy and Antonio Foster flunking out who I thought had All-ACC potential really hurt us), but man it is hard to expect your QB to have confidence in his abilities and the system when in the back of his mind he know there is going to be a couple of free rushers gunning for his head. Of all the tweaks I've noticed in the O, this group has been the most stagnant in progress. Until this unit improves, we remain mediocre.
 

dressedcheeseside

Helluva Engineer
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Unfortunately, CPJ's biggest strength is also his biggest weakness. The offense is schematically sound and sometimes even superior. The problem is continually convincing the caliber of athletes we need to win bigger to come play in it. We have been physically out manned by the big boys too much. I believe we should be in the "show me" posture as GT fans who love our team.

I hope the ship gets righted this year.
GT has had trouble convincing the factory blue chips to come here since Dodd left. The whole point of bringing CPJ in here was he showed he couldn't beat teams with more talent with his system. Furthermore, we haven't had a significant drop off in recruiting from the last guy. In fact, it's actually up a slight tic from the last guy and that includes his one flash in the pan class. Lastly, all signs point to a build in recruiting momentum right now. It's seems to me CPJ is starting to figure things out. It may have taken longer than we've liked, but it appears to be happening.
 

dressedcheeseside

Helluva Engineer
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13,671
@ATL1 Wasn't it refuted this year that you don't have to balanced to be successful (Auburn)?

From a philosophy standpoint, I'm still baffled on the coaching and development of the OLine. I know this group has been snake-bitten due to injuries and attrition (Gilbert transferring, Morgan Bailey not being able to stay healthy and Antonio Foster flunking out who I thought had All-ACC potential really hurt us), but man it is hard to expect your QB to have confidence in his abilities and the system when in the back of his mind he know there is going to be a couple of free rushers gunning for his head. Of all the tweaks I've noticed in the O, this group has been the most stagnant in progress. Until this unit improves, we remain mediocre.
The OL bunch that just graduated was CPJ's first group of OL's he recruited. Like you said, their group potential was mostly scuttled by injuries. Let's see if his next batch is any better.

As far as development goes, remember when CPJ came in here in '08 and most of us were scratching our heads about having 2 OL coaches. Maybe now we know why and maybe we should return to that model? Maybe we lost the wrong guy?
 

iceeater1969

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Agree w the issue of online, his philosophy of adjustments made latter causes use to waste valuable time. Remember the v t game and the stunts and our offside penalties. With coach calling plays he is too busy to fix fires. In my opinion the head coaches job is to help the assistant coaches and players get on same page during the game as well as during film secessions.

Also I disagree with the idea that u need to be a senior to play A back. This year 5 of 6 are seniors and none of them are standouts. This can't help in recruiting 4 5 star running backs. Surely we could use a freshman stud back in a called play where he does not block but gets the ball. Without at least one dangerous back the middle and qb are much easier to stop

This year I hope we we find out the big back can turn the edge and the small backs can block and that all can run the wheel route. Lots of hope in the new qb is not a long term plan but it is what it is so GO Jackets let's have a breakout year!
 

Mack

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It is my opinion that unless a QB is "under-ctr" with option plays IN HIGH SCHOOL it will take a 2 full yrs in D-1 games AT least to be very capable in this offense-even assuming he has the needed physical ability and then only with enough talent(ie-OL.,WRs) to help. The QB is more critical to this OFF than others.It is a dangerous Off but it takes a LOT of practice -almost TOO much to execute well the run game to the detriment of the pass game.(it is not by accident we have had less than 50% passing every yr but one).
otoh-PJ must be a helluva field coach- if you look at the poor returns from recruiting like the 2010 class-of the top 10 guys only 5 returned much contribution at all-and we still have been decent
Man are you spot on..........JN and Vad didnt take a snap hardly at all in HS and give Nesbitt props he did well but VL was option spread guy.Probably only guy we have had who ran the option in HS was Jaybo Shaw.If you are foreign to this offense it will take time to run it and so far we are not reading the pitch etc crisply.Give me a qb who ran this in HS and can read and throw a little and we will get better but..........still have not had a real true qb for this offense in six years.
 

daBuzz

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
965
@ATL1 Wasn't it refuted this year that you don't have to balanced to be successful (Auburn)?
Yes and no.

I don't think you have to be balanced as far as a 50/50 run/pass ratio but you certainly do have to be able to pass when the other team knows you are about to do so. And that's what I think Auburn showed. They were an 80/20 ratio run/pass but the difference between their system and ours (in my opinion) is that their passing isn't necessarily predicated off fooling the other team into thinking it's a run and then passing to cross them up.

Whether you're a fan of the triple option or not, you have to admit that our offense relies on the pass as a way to punish secondary defenders who come up to stop the run. But what happens when you're in a situation like Auburn was in versus UGA and you're down and only a few seconds to go in the game and everyone in the stadium knows you are going to pass?

The difference between the 2 systems to me is that their offense relies on WR's spread away from the ball to "spread" the defense out and get players out of the box. Our A-backs lined up as slot receivers just off the hip of the tackle does the opposite and brings more players into the box.
 

alaguy

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I'm going to go with all three.

As to the schematic deficit, I think that there is some of that in the DEF- our DEF sees our TO Off more than any other so it is not prepared WELL ENOUGH for other offenses.On top of that our poor passing ability (players and scheme) also hurts the DEF in that they don't see the type of passing attack in practice that they see in games.
 
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2,077
It is my opinion that unless a QB is "under-ctr" with option plays IN HIGH SCHOOL it will take a 2 full yrs in D-1 games AT least to be very capable in this offense-even assuming he has the needed physical ability and then only with enough talent(ie-OL.,WRs) to help. The QB is more critical to this OFF than others.It is a dangerous Off but it takes a LOT of practice -almost TOO much to execute well the run game to the detriment of the pass game.(it is not by accident we have had less than 50% passing every yr but one).
otoh-PJ must be a helluva field coach- if you look at the poor returns from recruiting like the 2010 class-of the top 10 guys only 5 returned much contribution at all-and we still have been decent
I don't agree that the quarterback is more critical to the triple option than other schemes. Being "under-talented" at the quarterback position spells big trouble in any scheme you can think of. Look at our Sun Bowl win against USC. Their quarterback was abysmal and it took them completely out of their comfort zone. The problem at Tech has been getting playmakers at qb. Name one since George Godsey that has overachieved. Maybe Justin Thomas will be that guy.
 

Techster

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I don't agree that the quarterback is more critical to the triple option than other schemes. Being "under-talented" at the quarterback position spells big trouble in any scheme you can think of. Look at our Sun Bowl win against USC. Their quarterback was abysmal and it took them completely out of their comfort zone. The problem at Tech has been getting playmakers at qb. Name one since George Godsey that has overachieved. Maybe Justin Thomas will be that guy.

QB is the most important position at EVERY level. Unless you surround a good "game manager" with outstanding talent (See Alabama), your QB better be a difference maker.

I would consider Nesbitt a playermaker. Just look at what he did for us in certain big games keeping the drive alive, making a big throw, or running around extending plays. People like to say he was surrounded by talent in BeyBey and Dwyer, but the guy did some heavy loading as well. Just look at the highlights against BC and VT and you'll see what he meant to us. His playmaking ability gets overlooked a lot.
 

augustabuzz

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Yes and no.

I don't think you have to be balanced as far as a 50/50 run/pass ratio but you certainly do have to be able to pass when the other team knows you are about to do so. And that's what I think Auburn showed. They were an 80/20 ratio run/pass but the difference between their system and ours (in my opinion) is that their passing isn't necessarily predicated off fooling the other team into thinking it's a run and then passing to cross them up.

Whether you're a fan of the triple option or not, you have to admit that our offense relies on the pass as a way to punish secondary defenders who come up to stop the run. But what happens when you're in a situation like Auburn was in versus UGA and you're down and only a few seconds to go in the game and everyone in the stadium knows you are going to pass? ...
.

Are you saying like Auburn, we would depend on the secondary to disregard the game situation for a chance at personal glory?
 
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2,077
GT has had trouble convincing the factory blue chips to come here since Dodd left. The whole point of bringing CPJ in here was he showed he couldn't beat teams with more talent with his system. Furthermore, we haven't had a significant drop off in recruiting from the last guy. In fact, it's actually up a slight tic from the last guy and that includes his one flash in the pan class. Lastly, all signs point to a build in recruiting momentum right now. It's seems to me CPJ is starting to figure things out. It may have taken longer than we've liked, but it appears to be happening.
I think he has beaten a few teams with his system that had more talent than we did. Georgia in 2008, Virginia Tech in 2009, both wins against Florida State, two wins against Clemson in 2009 and again in 2011. A case could be made for Miss State having better athletes when we pounded them twice.
 
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2,077
Man are you spot on..........JN and Vad didnt take a snap hardly at all in HS and give Nesbitt props he did well but VL was option spread guy.Probably only guy we have had who ran the option in HS was Jaybo Shaw.If you are foreign to this offense it will take time to run it and so far we are not reading the pitch etc crisply.Give me a qb who ran this in HS and can read and throw a little and we will get better but..........still have not had a real true qb for this offense in six years.
It is imperative, for the reasons you state, that Mathew Jordan be redshirted, and then spend another year in waiting honing his skills.
 

GTRanj

Jolly Good Fellow
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Location
Atlanta, Georgia
Yes and no.

I don't think you have to be balanced as far as a 50/50 run/pass ratio but you certainly do have to be able to pass when the other team knows you are about to do so. And that's what I think Auburn showed. They were an 80/20 ratio run/pass but the difference between their system and ours (in my opinion) is that their passing isn't necessarily predicated off fooling the other team into thinking it's a run and then passing to cross them up.

Whether you're a fan of the triple option or not, you have to admit that our offense relies on the pass as a way to punish secondary defenders who come up to stop the run. But what happens when you're in a situation like Auburn was in versus UGA and you're down and only a few seconds to go in the game and everyone in the stadium knows you are going to pass?

The difference between the 2 systems to me is that their offense relies on WR's spread away from the ball to "spread" the defense out and get players out of the box. Our A-backs lined up as slot receivers just off the hip of the tackle does the opposite and brings more players into the box.

You must be joking... That pass should have been batted down all day long!

The fact is, when you are running the ball 80% or more of the time, then you are probably not going to be very good at passing. Its as simple as that.

I think the advantage of what Auburn does over CPJ's system is the hurry-up. That mitigates the need to go pass-happy on the two-minute drill. It would be great if CPJ could add the hurry-up, not for every drive, but simply for the two-minute drill and a change of pace to give defenses something else to worry about. But this is also much easier said than done.

And to address you last comment your last comment, the A-backs lining up at the hip of the tackle makes it easier for the A-backs to get open. When you complete the pass to the A-backs, it then forces defenders to stay honest and not crowd the box.
 
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GTRanj

Jolly Good Fellow
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333
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Atlanta, Georgia
As to the schematic deficit, I think that there is some of that in the DEF- our DEF sees our TO Off more than any other so it is not prepared WELL ENOUGH for other offenses.On top of that our poor passing ability (players and scheme) also hurts the DEF in that they don't see the type of passing attack in practice that they see in games.

Why then were we not able to shut down BYU?

Going to an NFL example, how come Denver was so good against the run last year even though their offense relies heavily on passing? You would think Denver would get gashed by any running team and completely shut down passing teams by that logic. On the flip side of that coin, Seattle was more of a running team (NFL standards) and yet they were able to shut down the Bronco's pass-happy offense. I just do not buy that "our DEF sees our TO Off more than any other so it is not prepared WELL ENOUGH for other offenses".

Most of the time the defense is practicing vs the scout team offense, which replicates other team's offense. They do not face the 3O offense a majority of the time, mostly in scrimmages. This is the same with any other team.
 

dressedcheeseside

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I think we'll see a whole different kind of 2 minute drill this year. We now have a qb that can break containment. Hell, defenses weren't even going for containment, they were pinning their ears back which is easy pickings for slippery, quick and fast qb. We'll force defenses to play containment which will allow JT time to find the open guy. Our previous qb was just what the defense wanted in passing situations: poor pocket awareness, a guy who locked onto receivers and failed to see the field and a guy who tried to get outside at all costs when scrambling and wasn't slippery at all.

Remember how Tyrod Taylor used to always get 3 and long with his feet when the play broke down? I think we'll see a lot of that.
 
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2,077
I think we'll see a whole different kind of 2 minute drill this year. We now have a qb that can break containment. Hell, defenses weren't even going for containment, they were pinning their ears back which is easy pickings for slippery, quick and fast qb. We'll force defenses to play containment which will allow JT time to find the open guy. Our previous qb was just what the defense wanted in passing situations: poor pocket awareness, a guy who locked onto receivers and failed to see the field and a guy who tried to get outside at all costs when scrambling and wasn't slippery at all.

Remember how Tyrod Taylor used to always get 3 and long with his feet when the play broke down? I think we'll see a lot of that.
I heard Taylor's younger brother, Balljoint, is probably going to be a better athlete than Tyrod.
 

CornerBlitz

Jolly Good Fellow
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Don't know how long you've been a Tech fan but this has been our major issue my entire life and I've been watching since the 70s. Even during O'leary's years, which are much ballyhooed today....our teams that beat UGA (3 in a row) were not more talented than the mutts. We still had a talent deficit but had closed the gap enough to be more competitive and steal a couple. Not much has changed with regards to recruiting. There are parrallels from CPJ to the O'leary era as well. Great O but weak D generally. Other parrallel that I see is both are good coaches able to get wins vs. more talented teams. We get rid of CPJ it will be a mistake IMO and I have yet to hear anyone put forward a candidate that would do a better job.

Hey Whiskey. I've been a GT fan all of my 39 years and my Dad has educated me on the Dodd years, as he actually played for coach.

I would say the key phrase on your reply was " close the gap". GT will never recruit on par every year with the factories, and I don't expect us to. My point was simply PJ's system works both ways for us. I personally like it, but wish we would open the passing game some in order to showcase its flexibility. I believe this would somewhat broaden our attractiveness to the point where we could start to close the gap.
 

ATL1

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Let me say I feel Auburn is an anomaly similar to out 2009 season. I'm pretty sure Malzahn know's he'll have to enhance his passing attack to maintain a level of consistency. Which is something he has done before (he's even adapted his offense to fit a drop back passer) so I'm confident Auburn's offense will have more balance in the future.

There will be blips where extreme offenses whether pass happy of run oriented will have success but I'm about consistency.
 
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