Chip Long's Tulane Offense v. Oklahoma 2021 Film Analysis

[JacketFan137]

If we were talking about goal line or red zone situations in particular, there might be some merit to the suggestion of favoring running plays from under center, but if we’re on the 40 yard line, we should still be trying to spread out the defense and make them defend the whole field, even on 3rd and short.

it tips your hand way too much so it would be a bad idea for us. shotgun running is fine and our team looks like we’re building it to be from the gun.

shotgun also makes way more sense when your QB can run and you can introduce another threat on keepers.

for some teams it makes sense but that’s not really what has gone wrong with our offense

 

[augustabuzz]

Does it matter.

I can't recall the DEs frequently hitting the B-back prior to the BB hitting the LOS.

 

[forensicbuzz]

Depends. If we pick up the first down, then no. If we fail to get the yardage, then the OC is a moron for not going under center with the snap.

At least, that's what I've learned from message board offense 101 here on the Swarm...

I thought we were pretty good at 3rd and 1/2 yard-to-go, both on offense and defense. It was the 3rd and 8 we sucked at on defense.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

This is not true and has been explained at least almost every other month since 2019 why it’s not true

I guess the explanation wasn’t adequate if it was explained 18 times already, by your calculation.

 

[Techster]

I guess the explanation wasn’t adequate if it was explained 18 times already, by your calculation.

Urban Meyer makes a REALLY good point about shotgun (SG) versus under center (UC) in short yardage. It's not where the QB receives the ball, but where the mesh with the RB happens, and it's usually at the same point for both SG and UC:




Now the caveat to that is the QB sneak, which Meyer also explains. Since the QB gets the ball immediately, he can hit the hole quicker. Meyer doesn't directly talk about the negatives, but he does touch on the fact that receiving the ball from the SG gives the QB more options (literally and figuratively). As opposed to being UC, the QB in SG can now read his keys and can use the option or improvise, whereas if the QB is UC, he has limited options and it becomes OL vs DL. There's less room for error and improvisation.

There's pluses and minuses to each approach. At the end of the day it comes down to execution and individual ability.

 

[Ibeeballin]

I can't recall the DEs frequently hitting the B-back prior to the BB hitting the LOS.

Not the BBack but you get the point

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Urban Meyer makes a REALLY good point about shotgun (SG) versus under center (UC) in short yardage. It's not where the QB receives the ball, but where the mesh with the RB happens, and it's usually at the same point for both SG and UC:




Now the caveat to that is the QB sneak, which Meyer also explains. Since the QB gets the ball immediately, he can hit the hole quicker. Meyer doesn't directly talk about the negatives, but he does touch on the fact that receiving the ball from the SG gives the QB more options (literally and figuratively). As opposed to being UC, the QB in SG can now read his keys and can use the option or improvise, whereas if the QB is UC, he has limited options and it becomes OL vs DL. There's less room for error and improvisation.

There's pluses and minuses to each approach. At the end of the day it comes down to execution and individual ability.

That’s helpful.

If the mesh point is the same can it also be said that the acceleration is the same for the running backs? Tech often looked slow in the mesh and like the running backs were almost starting from a standstill at the point of the mesh.

What I also hear between the lines (text not football positions) is that if you are running SG you have more options if you are really ELITE at multiple offensive positions, that is among the best of the best. Whereas, you might be slightly more effective UC if you only have 2 or 3 top notch players on offense, say like the QB, center and a guard.

Put another way, my confidence level running SG on 3rd and goal from the 2 yard line is much higher if the team running it is Alabama, Georgia or Ohio State. By definition they will be among the best running this as well as having practiced against some of the best defenses.

 

[TromboneJacket]

That’s helpful.

If the mesh point is the same can it also be said that the acceleration is the same for the running backs? Tech often looked slow in the mesh and like the running backs were almost starting from a standstill at the point of the mesh.

What I also hear between the lines (text not football positions) is that if you are running SG you have more options if you are really ELITE at multiple offensive positions, that is among the best of the best. Whereas, you might be slightly more effective UC if you only have 2 or 3 top notch players on offense, say like the QB, center and a guard.

Put another way, my confidence level running SG on 3rd and goal from the 2 yard line is much higher if the team running it is Alabama, Georgia or Ohio State. By definition they will be among the best running this as well as having practiced against some of the best defenses.

One wrinkle we could implement to help with running the ball in short yardage situations would be using the Diamond formation or something similar with our best run-blocking skill players (blocking TEs or RBs who are good lead blockers if we have any). We could still run option plays or misdirection out of this formation. Or we could just use our backfield blockers like fullbacks in the traditional I-formation. Or they could block on the edge coming out of the backfield. Lots of possibilities. The main drawback is that it makes passing more difficult and allows the defense to pack the box while maintaining coverage responsibilities. It also might be worth exploring Demetrius Knight as a Wildcat/short yardage QB again.

 

[augustabuzz]

Not the BBack but you get the point

Yes, I would expect the DE to make the play that comes right at him, but that's not what we're discussing. We're talking about a dive play in the interior line. Put a timer on Zack Laskey hitting the line and Urban Meyer's quickest back hitting the line after the mesh. Anybody that passed the first physics course can give you the answer with just observation.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

Put another way, my confidence level running ANY OFFENSIVE PLAY on 3rd and goal from the 2 yard line is much higher if the team running it is Alabama, Georgia or Ohio State. By definition they will be among the best running this as well as having practiced against some of the best defenses.

FIFY.

That being said, my preference is always to run from under center, but that's mainly because I'm older now and it's what I know. SG works as well and the numbers bear it out.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

FIFY.

That being said, my preference is always to run from under center, but that's mainly because I'm older now and it's what I know. SG works as well and the numbers bear it out.

You say the numbers bear it out but I wonder about that if we are talking about lower skill set players. So, let’s say you are goal to go on the one and a half yard line and it’s third down. The team across from you has a season’s worth of experience against the shot gun. Let’s say that team is Michigan. Clearly Georgia could score with ease in the shotgun at that point. But what if you had to chose between Tech in the shotgun or Army under center? Both would have a hard time but I know who I would put my money on.

 

[augustabuzz]

FIFY.

That being said, my preference is always to run from under center, but that's mainly because I'm older now and it's what I know. SG works as well and the numbers bear it out.

I'm not sure older has much to do with it. I remember Coach Dodd running out of "short punt formation "(shotgun) when Lothridge was QB.

 

[Ibeeballin]

You say the numbers bear it out but I wonder about that if we are talking about lower skill set players. So, let’s say you are goal to go on the one and a half yard line and it’s third down. The team across from you has a season’s worth of experience against the shot gun. Let’s say that team is Michigan. Clearly Georgia could score with ease in the shotgun at that point. But what if you had to chose between Tech in the shotgun or Army under center? Both would have a hard time but I know who I would put my money on.

You would lose a lot of money.

Run From Shotgun, Not Under Center

Hayden Winks analyzes why running from shotgun was better than running from under center in 2019 and ranks teams by shotgun/under center splits. (AP)

sports.yahoo.com

 

[TromboneJacket]

I’m loving this discussion of Shotgun vs Under Center, and I think there are pros and cons to both.

It seems that under center is better for hitting the hole faster because the RB is already running downhill when the mesh happens. And it’s better for play action because the QB turns his back and obscures the ball during the mesh. For the B-back types we had under CPJ, it’s clearly a good fit. And it’s easier for the center to go from snapping to blocking. If we had a QB with good footwork who could throw well on the run, I believe under center makes bootlegs easier/smoother as well.

In the Shotgun, it’s easier to make reads on option plays because of the wider field of vision and the wider disparity in angles taken by edge rushers. It makes running laterally easier because the RB gets the ball before having to commit to a gap. On play action, it’s harder to trick the defense, but the QB can get a head start on reading the field while faking the mesh. For the shiftier backs we have now (like Dontae), shotgun zone running schemes make more sense.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

You would lose a lot of money.

Run From Shotgun, Not Under Center

Hayden Winks analyzes why running from shotgun was better than running from under center in 2019 and ranks teams by shotgun/under center splits. (AP)

sports.yahoo.com

The article you posted has nothing to do with the example I gave. I think everyone on here agrees that there is more parity in pro sports so the idea of some teams being way over matched by a defense when they run shotgun isn’t even discussed. The writer also admits he’s making assumptions in cases where the data is missing.

Yeah, I would still bet Army comes closer to scoring than Tech in the scenario I laid out.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I'm not sure older has much to do with it. I remember Coach Dodd running out of "short punt formation "(shotgun) when Lothridge was QB.

Everything goes in cycles. Heisman is said to have used the first hurry up offense too. And supposedly the single-wing was long dead and buried but then pros disguised it and started calling it a “wildcat” formation and it was back in business.

 

[YJMD]

You would lose a lot of money.

Run From Shotgun, Not Under Center

Hayden Winks analyzes why running from shotgun was better than running from under center in 2019 and ranks teams by shotgun/under center splits. (AP)

sports.yahoo.com

I'm not sure that we can translate NFL data. Seems to me the deeper analysis is that defenses play as if expecting run from under center, so it's really about flexibility and making strategic calls to exploit defensive alignment and tendencies, and NFL OCs are too predictable.

 

[FlatsLander]

Not the BBack but you get the point

This looks like a busted play or something. Not arguing with your point, just a side discussion. Why are the RG and RT lined up 4 yards away from C? Why is the BB running away from the play? The DE is left unblocked with no apparent option reads. Is this the 2012 Miami game? I'd like to see if from another angle haha

 

[slugboy]

Shotgun vs under center is more of a preference argument than a data driven one. Under center offers you the QB sneak and the midline option. They’re great choices if they’re something you do a lot, but running 199 RPO-style plays out of shotgun doesn’t set you up well to run midline once in the game for a first down. Your line and your backs only get so many reps.

One of the reasons to run out of shotgun is that it’s easier to get to the outside, and the middle is where the best run stoppers are. That’s also true on 4th and 1.

Also, if you’re building your offense for 4th and 1, you might want that dinosaur of a player called a fullback that’s nearly extinct. I personally love a fullback run, but it might be rarer than a wildcat formation. It’s hard to be good at something you don’t practice.

Edit: I’m not going to go to the mat arguing for or against under center vs shotgun. I can barely convince people that you shouldn’t punt from your opponent’s 35 yard line. And I’ve had to argue that in this past season

 

[Ibeeballin]

Now we’re to the point where we are stating opinions as facts.


But the way some of y’all talk, under center team should never punt and should always be scoring