Charter Schools

[LibertyTurns]

Free market as in Trump University and charter schools, one presumes.

People buy dumb crap all the time. Why is my or anyone else’s job to keep you from making a dumb decision?

You pay a ton of money for a crap degree at a crap school well you just bought a pile of crap. Why is that different than buying a crappy appliance or paying for a crappy teacher or watching crappy football? Eventually free market prevails and people stop buying the crap.

FYI- I’ve lived in 13 different locations in my life. The Charter schools were #1 in every single school district minus a couple where the Parochial schools dominated and it’s not even close in any of them.

Why are you opposed to where anyone sends their kids to school? Isn’t it their choice? Why do you think you’re better deciding for me than I am?

 

[Skeptic]

People buy dumb crap all the time. Why is my or anyone else’s job to keep you from making a dumb decision?

You pay a ton of money for a crap degree at a crap school well you just bought a pile of crap. Why is that different than buying a crappy appliance or paying for a crappy teacher or watching crappy football? Eventually free market prevails and people stop buying the crap.

FYI- I’ve lived in 13 different locations in my life. The Charter schools were #1 in every single school district minus a couple where the Parochial schools dominated and it’s not even close in any of them.

Why are you opposed to where anyone sends their kids to school? Isn’t it their choice? Why do you think you’re better deciding for me than I am?

I'm not. I just don't want to pay for them. And taxpayers provide majority of the charter school funding, sucked out of the public school taxes, all of which is funneled into some sleazeball's accounting ledger of multiple corporations leasing from other corporations to other corporations. Your position was private school superiority. I pointed out, while actually being charitable,that is a load. I didn't even mention for instance, the famed Liberty University law school, which is, I believe, private. It hardly does education better than say, UNC, UGA, or Georgia Tech, all public institutions.

Public education is a must and it is a bargain. There remains a core among us who don't want the great unwashed educated. Makes them uppity, don't you know.

 

[LibertyTurns]

I'm not. I just don't want to pay for them. And taxpayers provide majority of the charter school funding, sucked out of the public school taxes, all of which is funneled into some sleazeball's accounting ledger of multiple corporations leasing from other corporations to other corporations. Your position was private school superiority. I pointed out, while actually being charitable,that is a load. I didn't even mention for instance, the famed Liberty University law school, which is, I believe, private. It hardly does education better than say, UNC, UGA, or Georgia Tech, all public institutions.

Public education is a must and it is a bargain. There remains a core among us who don't want the great unwashed educated. Makes them uppity, don't you know.

In my county, charter elementary schools are 41% the cost per student of public, charter grade schools 43% & the charter high school is 47%. Standardized testing annually shows a wide chasm between charter kids performance at all levels & public. Thee charter high school nearly rivals the Catholic & privates for college placement, SAT/ACT scores, etc. This despite the demographics of the charters being more integrated, lower income & much higher percentage of special needs on both ends of the spectrum (high & low) from the public schools. It wasn’t any different when I lived on the left coast, the percentages nearly identical; performance roughly the same. The public schools waste of resources is incredible.

Every School Board meeting where I currently live when they get to the budget there’s a charter vs public discussion & I hear the same drivel about charters sucking public school money away. The facts show otherwise in every location I’ve ever lived. There’s 1.2:1 staff to student in the public schools & 1:6 in the charters. The difference is rules are enforced, there’s challenging classes offered at each level, and it’s run like a business so there’s no extra overhead. Compare that to the wasteful public school run by your tenured bureaucrats.

 

[LibertyTurns]

And if you care at all about helping minorities, you’ll start to support fully funding charters. If not, well I guess your motives speak for themselves.

https://urbancharters.stanford.edu/download/Urban Charter School Study Report on 41 Regions.pdf

 

[gtphd]

Not quite sure how this transitioned to a charter school discussion, but back to post secondary education:

Two fundamental problems with education in the US that drives up cost: ranking systems and federal loans. The de facto national university ranking table is USNWR. The USNWR methodology is asinine, especially compared with THE and QS rankings. USNWR provides a disproportionate weight to the admission rate, which is effectively the application rate. This has caused an arms race in US schools to provide auxiliary services like fully staffed on campus hospitals, water parks, concerts, world-class exercise facilities, upgraded dorms with en suites, etc. This things cost tons of money and is where all that tuition goes, not to the education.

Couple an incentive to charge an increasing amount with limitless access to buyer capital via federal student loans and you get what we have now.

 

[Skeptic]

In my county, charter elementary schools are 41% the cost per student of public, charter grade schools 43% & the charter high school is 47%. Standardized testing annually shows a wide chasm between charter kids performance at all levels & public. Thee charter high school nearly rivals the Catholic & privates for college placement, SAT/ACT scores, etc. This despite the demographics of the charters being more integrated, lower income & much higher percentage of special needs on both ends of the spectrum (high & low) from the public schools. It wasn’t any different when I lived on the left coast, the percentages nearly identical; performance roughly the same. The public schools waste of resources is incredible.

Every School Board meeting where I currently live when they get to the budget there’s a charter vs public discussion & I hear the same drivel about charters sucking public school money away. The facts show otherwise in every location I’ve ever lived. There’s 1.2:1 staff to student in the public schools & 1:6 in the charters. The difference is rules are enforced, there’s challenging classes offered at each level, and it’s run like a business so there’s no extra overhead. Compare that to the wasteful public school run by your tenured bureaucrats.

Let me put it this way: private schools should, and I emphasize should, always outperform public schools. Always. The privates cherry pick their enrollment, reject whom they please, and generally though not always get children from successful families. (And I don't think that factoid is stressed nearly enough. I once tutored a kid, 12 or 13, in a public school. And before stereotypes, he was white. Lived in a trailer. Could not read a lick. Not one. And I could not teach him, which frustrated me and on the other hand reminded me how tough those jobs are. But: I asked him if he had books at home. No. Did he have magazines? No. Did they get a newspaper? No, just an ad flier, mostly because his daddy looked at car ads. These kid was toast before he ever entered school.)

For instance, would you play me in football -- and I am a lousy football coach -- if I could offer 85 scholarships, recruit nationally, and you had to pick your team from your enrollment? (As an aside tha's why the (private) parochial schools were once so powerful: recruiting.

Public schools must take anybody coming through the door. And they should. Charter schools, parochial schools, other private schools can be and are selective. They have an advantage in every way, so comparing private and public is worse than apples and oranges. (By the way, I have no idea how it is where you are, but the "sucking public money away" being drivel, is up where in North Carolina, anything but. Public school districts are legally required to shovel the average education cost per student over to the charter school against their enrollment. You can look it up. It ain't drivel. It's fraud, and a direct attack on public education. Don't know about Georgia but if my experience in those schools was typical, god help them all, public or private.)

 

[LibertyTurns]

Sorry I misquoted above, those percentages were percentages cheaper not percentage of. Your home state is pretty close to the national average with respect to the savings per student of sending a kid to a charter school than a public school.

I pulled up a bunch of North Carolina news regarding schools and it appears you all have the same misinformation campaign I’ve seen elsewhere except it’s much more organized. The school unions and political power block are very concerned, nervous and fearful because they’re under attack for doing a generally crappy job educating our youth while larding on costs at an accelerating rate. Private & charter schools are an assault against the status quo.

I was able to find some info after searching diligently. Links are below. Average expenditure in North Carolina per public school student (charter & public) during 2015-2016 school year was $8296. Charter funding per student in 2017-2018 school year was $5771. It’s was at least 31% cheaper to fund a charter student in your state unless there was a dramatic drop in school costs between 2015 & 2017. Gotta admit your state makes is unusually hard to get what should be easily accessible public data but I don’t live there so I’ll spot you that it’s probably easier for you all to find such data.

Across the nation most of these elements are part of the charter school deal:

A. They must enroll all students desiring to attend. Where there’s more applicants than spots, selection is done by a blind lottery.
B. If there performance drops to an unacceptable level, they all lose their jobs and the school is shuttered.

Our country needs to stop making excuses for poorly performing public schools. There’s good ones out there, but by & large our nation does a pitiful job of educating its youth. The vast majority are educated in public schools so the booger belongs to them, our lawmakers, etc and if they cared they’d start fixing it.


http://www.dpi.state.nc.us/docs/fbs/resources/data/factsfigures/2015-16figures.pdf

http://www.dpi.state.nc.us/docs/fbs/resources/data/highlights/2018highlights.pdf

 

[Skeptic]

Sorry I misquoted above, those percentages were percentages cheaper not percentage of. Your home state is pretty close to the national average with respect to the savings per student of sending a kid to a charter school than a public school.

I pulled up a bunch of North Carolina news regarding schools and it appears you all have the same misinformation campaign I’ve seen elsewhere except it’s much more organized. The school unions and political power block are very concerned, nervous and fearful because they’re under attack for doing a generally crappy job educating our youth while larding on costs at an accelerating rate. Private & charter schools are an assault against the status quo.

I was able to find some info after searching diligently. Links are below. Average expenditure in North Carolina per public school student (charter & public) during 2015-2016 school year was $8296. Charter funding per student in 2017-2018 school year was $5771. It’s was at least 31% cheaper to fund a charter student in your state unless there was a dramatic drop in school costs between 2015 & 2017. Gotta admit your state makes is unusually hard to get what should be easily accessible public data but I don’t live there so I’ll spot you that it’s probably easier for you all to find such data.

Across the nation most of these elements are part of the charter school deal:

A. They must enroll all students desiring to attend. Where there’s more applicants than spots, selection is done by a blind lottery.
B. If there performance drops to an unacceptable level, they all lose their jobs and the school is shuttered.

Our country needs to stop making excuses for poorly performing public schools. There’s good ones out there, but by & large our nation does a pitiful job of educating its youth. The vast majority are educated in public schools so the booger belongs to them, our lawmakers, etc and if they cared they’d start fixing it.


http://www.dpi.state.nc.us/docs/fbs/resources/data/factsfigures/2015-16figures.pdf

http://www.dpi.state.nc.us/docs/fbs/resources/data/highlights/2018highlights.pdf

Thanks. But no, makes no difference where one lives. Charter school finances are protected at every turn regardless of funding source, and merely to get a principal's salary is a hopeless task. One enterprising newspaper devoted countless hours to discover the sham of a) getting charter approval; b) buying property; c) leasing said property another corporation that builds a building; d) leasing said building to another corporation to run the school, and then of course countless leases for computer equipment desks, etc., all of it traced to single ownership. In one case, I believe, actually just one person. In others what amounted to an equity investment group. So no, I am not a big fan of the "free market" in schools. Or for that matter anywhere when it is so clearly corrupt and rigged to rip off the paying public. All lip and no service so to speak.

 

[LibertyTurns]

Thanks. But no, makes no difference where one lives. Charter school finances are protected at every turn regardless of funding source, and merely to get a principal's salary is a hopeless task. One enterprising newspaper devoted countless hours to discover the sham of a) getting charter approval; b) buying property; c) leasing said property another corporation that builds a building; d) leasing said building to another corporation to run the school, and then of course countless leases for computer equipment desks, etc., all of it traced to single ownership. In one case, I believe, actually just one person. In others what amounted to an equity investment group. So no, I am not a big fan of the "free market" in schools. Or for that matter anywhere when it is so clearly corrupt and rigged to rip off the paying public. All lip and no service so to speak.

I’m 100% there’s been instances of charter school abuse but it pales in comparison to the fraud, waste & abuse in the public school system by an extremely large margin. Just in my small county there $5M missing in the last 3 years & the system had been making fraudulent claims to the state for reimbursement of expenses that were never incurred. Where I last lived on the left coast, that was about 1 school’s worth of ineptness if that. That wasn't even counting the expense of having police officers as a constant presence in the school to combat violence, drug use, etc. It’s crazy & we keep plowing along like all’s well with our public schools while they’re rotting all around us.

 

[MWBATL]

Politics aside, how can you blame them? College loans are backed by the federal government with payback capped at a percentage of income. So if someone can’t pay the loan back, the government will back it up. As long as they can hit their enrollment targets, why shouldn’t they keep charging more? They are guaranteed by law to get their money.

I can blame them for being such hypocrites.......they use the strategy you just describe but insist on ultra-liberal agendas and the elimination of freedom of speech.....

 

[MWBATL]

I gather then that in your world a conservative mindset is just hunky dory. Our university system, despite an all out and almost criminal assault in recent years, offers great educations for those who come to think and to learn, and the real absurdity and embarrassment should come from those who praise those coaching salaries, and contribute toward them, while targeting those who actually educate their little darlin's. We could talk about administration salaries, but why bother? The point is the professors, the actual teachers, get a pittance of the tuition charges.

In the vast majority of universities, the athletic department gets NONE ($0) of the tuition money. Sooooo, not sure what your point is here...... maybe the fact that many universities now have Diversity Officers and other frivolous positions in administration that do not contribute to educating your little darlin's (usually required by your glorious Federal Government as led by liberals) that more and more money is being diverted into social programs that don't do squat

 

[MWBATL]

There remains a core among us who don't want the great unwashed educated. Makes them uppity, don't you know.

I have never witnessed anything that would justify that sentiment other than your own personal bias. The best among us should ALWAYS have access to education, no matter their financial circumstances...I don't know how you can support equality of opportunity (which to me is what America represents or should represent) without that.

But our education systems suck and amongst its many problems are the fact that government gets involved and doe snot have the best interests of kids at heart, but the best interests of the politicians. Education is also a reflection of societies' problems.....can't solve them by tweaking the educational system....

But at its heart, I would choose freedom of choice, and the government system fights that tooth and nail.....

 

[Deleted member 2897]

...doe snot...

Doe Snot, LOL.

 

[LibertyTurns]

I have never witnessed anything that would justify that sentiment other than your own personal bias. The best among us should ALWAYS have access to education, no matter their financial circumstances...I don't know how you can support equality of opportunity (which to me is what America represents or should represent) without that.

But our education systems suck and amongst its many problems are the fact that government gets involved and doe snot have the best interests of kids at heart, but the best interests of the politicians. Education is also a reflection of societies' problems.....can't solve them by tweaking the educational system....

But at its heart, I would choose freedom of choice, and the government system fights that tooth and nail.....

The dude’s not really interested in improving the opportunities minorities get. They’ll fight relentlessly to keep the stranglehold they have on poor/ predominantly minority communities all the while parading around like they’d help them if someone else would just give them more. Sorry, at its core this philosophy is deeply racist and I really can’t understand how generation after generation falls for this crap. Glad I was not raised that way. It must be a pitiful existence.

 

[LibertyTurns]

The Washington Post: There’s nothing progressive about strangling charter schools.

https://wapo.st/2QqpGWo

Libs- Let’s not let facts get in the way of your agenda. Keep them people in their place.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

The Washington Post: There’s nothing progressive about strangling charter schools.

https://wapo.st/2QqpGWo

Libs- Let’s not let facts get in the way of your agenda. Keep them people in their place.

Which political party benefits by having a permanent, dependent underclass, and which party benefits when people move up the ladder?