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BREAKING: NCAA says state of North Carolina will again be considered for championship hosting....
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<blockquote data-quote="vamosjackets" data-source="post: 304019" data-attributes="member: 216"><p>First, thanks for the seemingly slightly less aggravated response. </p><p></p><p>Second, do you not believe that your entire discourse here presupposes human rationality without being able to prove it without an appeal to ... wait for it ... human rationality? You say human rationality isn't subjective ... we can judge it by ... wait for it again ... more human rationality. This is called a first-order faith position. You must have a starting point. Everyone must have a place from which they begin that cannot be proven. Yours is human rationality. That is your ultimate authority, and you cannot prove it nor account for it. In fact to even speak of it or argue for it, you're having to use it and thus presuppose it. Naturalism cannot account for its existence and there is much evidence that it is perhaps the most flawed fundamental of all (see the 5th post in this thread for exhibit A: <a href="https://gtswarm.com/threads/uga-wr-riley-ridley-arrested-blue-badged-bagmen-to-the-rescue.11854/" target="_blank">https://gtswarm.com/threads/uga-wr-riley-ridley-arrested-blue-badged-bagmen-to-the-rescue.11854/</a> ). People do not act in their own self-interest and destroy themselves and others on a regular basis ... in fact, I would say more often than not. And, your apologetic for this is "if we mess up enough, we'll eventually get it right???" Is that not an extremely large leap of faith? History certainly does not point to the likelihood of that conclusion. Let's imagine this utopia you're selling that we're going to get to by continually making mistakes: How will we judge the value, the beauty, the goodness, the justice of this utopia built by human rationality? ... one last time, everybody now ... human rationality. </p><p></p><p> Third, you ask if I or anyone else would want to live "in a society where there is open, lawless killing as in Nazi Germany? Do you have to consult a faith of any sort to reach that conclusion? I sure hope not. " Nazi German was not lawless killing. It was lawful killing. And, if they had won, what kind of world would we be living in? Whose rationality would we be using? What would be the working definitions of good, evil, justice, human rights, equality? </p><p>Here's the thing my man. We live in a society that's just as bad. The problem is you and I and everyone else are masters of self-justification and do not see our own flaws (unless something outside of us shows it to us - like God, scripture). We kill multitudes of millions more than Nazi Germany and have written it in as legally protected under the law. We have even sought to publicly fund it. And, it's taking human life, the most vulnerable form of it. Abortion kills more than Nazi Germany every year ... EVERY YEAR! Why doesn't it matter to you??? Because it's F'N pragmatic, that's why. It's in your self-interest. You can't hear them cry. You don't have to watch them get torn apart and yanked from the womb. You don't want to have to take any responsibility for their existence. And, because none of this registers, you feel perfectly justified. How can it ever be justified to take one life for the convenience of another? Because, they're not as human as you. They're not as valuable as you. Their existence would be miserable anyway and be an extra burden on society. It sounds JUST LIKE Nazi Germany. Murder of innocent life isn't wrong, it's just not pragmatic ... unless it is. Do we need a holy book, an appeal to God to teach us about the evil inside ourselves and call us back from the abyss of self-interest? Only if we're realists. Only if we want (NEED) a critique of human rationality from outside of human rationality. The problem is and always has been ... we don't want that critique.</p><p></p><p>Fourth, thanks for the book recommendation. I will try to look into that, seriously.</p><p></p><p>Fifth, if you have time, give the Veritas Forum YouTube video I posted earlier a chance. I think you'll find it to be fair (much better than me) and provide very relevant insight into what our country needs most right now from both sides. I probably need to re-watch it myself. </p><p></p><p>Sixth, I respect your wishes to stop the conversation and don't expect a response. If you want to give one, all the better, but I will certainly not take your silence as though you had nothing to say or conceding anything.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="vamosjackets, post: 304019, member: 216"] First, thanks for the seemingly slightly less aggravated response. Second, do you not believe that your entire discourse here presupposes human rationality without being able to prove it without an appeal to ... wait for it ... human rationality? You say human rationality isn't subjective ... we can judge it by ... wait for it again ... more human rationality. This is called a first-order faith position. You must have a starting point. Everyone must have a place from which they begin that cannot be proven. Yours is human rationality. That is your ultimate authority, and you cannot prove it nor account for it. In fact to even speak of it or argue for it, you're having to use it and thus presuppose it. Naturalism cannot account for its existence and there is much evidence that it is perhaps the most flawed fundamental of all (see the 5th post in this thread for exhibit A: [URL]https://gtswarm.com/threads/uga-wr-riley-ridley-arrested-blue-badged-bagmen-to-the-rescue.11854/[/URL] ). People do not act in their own self-interest and destroy themselves and others on a regular basis ... in fact, I would say more often than not. And, your apologetic for this is "if we mess up enough, we'll eventually get it right???" Is that not an extremely large leap of faith? History certainly does not point to the likelihood of that conclusion. Let's imagine this utopia you're selling that we're going to get to by continually making mistakes: How will we judge the value, the beauty, the goodness, the justice of this utopia built by human rationality? ... one last time, everybody now ... human rationality. Third, you ask if I or anyone else would want to live "in a society where there is open, lawless killing as in Nazi Germany? Do you have to consult a faith of any sort to reach that conclusion? I sure hope not. " Nazi German was not lawless killing. It was lawful killing. And, if they had won, what kind of world would we be living in? Whose rationality would we be using? What would be the working definitions of good, evil, justice, human rights, equality? Here's the thing my man. We live in a society that's just as bad. The problem is you and I and everyone else are masters of self-justification and do not see our own flaws (unless something outside of us shows it to us - like God, scripture). We kill multitudes of millions more than Nazi Germany and have written it in as legally protected under the law. We have even sought to publicly fund it. And, it's taking human life, the most vulnerable form of it. Abortion kills more than Nazi Germany every year ... EVERY YEAR! Why doesn't it matter to you??? Because it's F'N pragmatic, that's why. It's in your self-interest. You can't hear them cry. You don't have to watch them get torn apart and yanked from the womb. You don't want to have to take any responsibility for their existence. And, because none of this registers, you feel perfectly justified. How can it ever be justified to take one life for the convenience of another? Because, they're not as human as you. They're not as valuable as you. Their existence would be miserable anyway and be an extra burden on society. It sounds JUST LIKE Nazi Germany. Murder of innocent life isn't wrong, it's just not pragmatic ... unless it is. Do we need a holy book, an appeal to God to teach us about the evil inside ourselves and call us back from the abyss of self-interest? Only if we're realists. Only if we want (NEED) a critique of human rationality from outside of human rationality. The problem is and always has been ... we don't want that critique. Fourth, thanks for the book recommendation. I will try to look into that, seriously. Fifth, if you have time, give the Veritas Forum YouTube video I posted earlier a chance. I think you'll find it to be fair (much better than me) and provide very relevant insight into what our country needs most right now from both sides. I probably need to re-watch it myself. Sixth, I respect your wishes to stop the conversation and don't expect a response. If you want to give one, all the better, but I will certainly not take your silence as though you had nothing to say or conceding anything. [/QUOTE]
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