Braves trade JHey to Cardinals

[kg01]

http://www.ajc.com/news/sports/baseball/braves-trade-heyward-to-cardinals/nh8p9/

Can't help but feel saddened by this. I guess they didn't expect to re-sign him after this year. Always thought the mark of good organizations is developing homegrown guys (guys you draft) then signing them once they blossom.

I guess they got a decent package. Gotta think on this one a while.

 

[collegeballfan]

"Miller is 6‐0 with a 2.14 ERA in 10 September starts, including a 1.48 ERA in five September starts in 2014."

Welcome to the Braves Mr. Miller.

 

[TechnicalPossum]

http://www.ajc.com/news/sports/baseball/braves-trade-heyward-to-cardinals/nh8p9/

Can't help but feel saddened by this. I guess they didn't expect to re-sign him after this year. Always thought the mark of good organizations is developing homegrown guys (guys you draft) then signing them once they blossom.

I guess they got a decent package. Gotta think on this one a while.

It all comes down to player control IMO. Heyward and Walden are unrestricted FA's next year. They get Miller for 4 years and Jenkins for 6. I still hate the trade though.

 

[Nook Su Kow]

Good move imo.

 

[kg01]

It all comes down to player control IMO. Heyward and Walden are unrestricted FA's next year. They get Miller for 4 years and Jenkins for 6. I still hate the trade though.

Agreed. I see why it's a good move but I still can't fully get behind it (yet). Typical head vs. heart thing I guess.

 

[bat_082994]

When I first saw this, I wasn't a fan of this trade b/c Heyward is my favorite player. But the more I think about this, the more I tend to agree with the move. Let's face it. The Braves weren't going to be able to resign Heyward. I think that ship sailed after locking him up for two years last year. I also don't believe he's quite lived up to they hype he had coming up through the system. He's a good player, no doubt, but he didn't end up being this team's next Chipper Jones, like many (myself included) thought he would. Hopefully, this works as a bit of a reverse to the JD Drew/Adam Wainwright deal for us with either Miller (whom I'm a big fan of) or the other kid becomes that Wainwright-esque pitcher. Even if they're at least serviceable, that's still a pretty intimidating rotation, even just looking at next year.

Teheran
Wood
Miller
Minor
-insert 5th pitcher-

That looks like a pretty good rotation to me with a ton of potential to be a great one.

 

[TechnicalPossum]

When I first saw this, I wasn't a fan of this trade b/c Heyward is my favorite player. But the more I think about this, the more I tend to agree with the move. Let's face it. The Braves weren't going to be able to resign Heyward. I think that ship sailed after locking him up for two years last year. I also don't believe he's quite lived up to they hype he had coming up through the system. He's a good player, no doubt, but he didn't end up being this team's next Chipper Jones, like many (myself included) thought he would. Hopefully, this works as a bit of a reverse to the JD Drew/Adam Wainwright deal for us with either Miller (whom I'm a big fan of) or the other kid becomes that Wainwright-esque pitcher. Even if they're at least serviceable, that's still a pretty intimidating rotation, even just looking at next year.

Teheran
Wood
Miller
Minor
-insert 5th pitcher-

That looks like a pretty good rotation to me with a ton of potential to be a great one.

While I mostly agree with the pitching assessment, we will score runs how exactly? Gosselin at 2B with a weak to middling bat, Bethancort at C with a weak to middling bat, Johnson at 3B who cannot hit RH pitching, BJ in CF who is sub-replacement level batting, and Simmons at SS hitting .250/.295/.300 (which I'd take based on his glove alone). You cannot have a successful team with 4 black holes and the pitcher in the batting lineup every night. And that doesn't even account for the drop in outfield defense by essentially switching Gold-Glove Heyward for Iron-glove Gattis.

This also assumes Minor doesn't throw up another 4.77 ERA / 1.44 WHIP season and Wood/Teheran do not regress.

 

[Jay Alexander]

Hate it only because it was special watching Jason Heyward run around and make some of the catches he made in the outfield.

Very fair question about how we are going to score runs, but we didn't score that many with him on the lineup last year. Hope it works out for the best. I've always been a Shelby Miller fan and look forward to him trotting out to the mound every fifth day.

 

[bat_082994]

While I mostly agree with the pitching assessment, we will score runs how exactly? Gosselin at 2B with a weak to middling bat, Bethancort at C with a weak to middling bat, Johnson at 3B who cannot hit RH pitching, BJ in CF who is sub-replacement level batting, and Simmons at SS hitting .250/.295/.300 (which I'd take based on his glove alone). You cannot have a successful team with 4 black holes and the pitcher in the batting lineup every night. And that doesn't even account for the drop in outfield defense by essentially switching Gold-Glove Heyward for Iron-glove Gattis.

This also assumes Minor doesn't throw up another 4.77 ERA / 1.44 WHIP season and Wood/Teheran do not regress.

Those are all fair concerns, but in case you missed last season, we didn't exactly score a whole lot of runs anyway. John Hart has made it pretty clear that the Braves are building towards 2017. Personally, I'm a huge John Hart fan, so I have total confidence that he knows what he's doing.

 

[TechnicalPossum]

Those are all fair concerns, but in case you missed last season, we didn't exactly score a whole lot of runs anyway. John Hart has made it pretty clear that the Braves are building towards 2017. Personally, I'm a huge John Hart fan, so I have total confidence that he knows what he's doing.

Hate it only because it was special watching Jason Heyward run around and make some of the catches he made in the outfield.

Very fair question about how we are going to score runs, but we didn't score that many with him on the lineup last year. Hope it works out for the best. I've always been a Shelby Miller fan and look forward to him trotting out to the mound every fifth day.

Oh trust me, I didn't miss last season. But, Heyward, J. Upton, and Freeman are the only starters who got on base/hit at a reasonable clip. Gattis provided a good power stroke and decent slash line, especially given his position. The rest of the offense was a grade-A sink hole maximized by poor managerial decisions. To fix the offense, trading 1 of the 4 who hit with any consistency / usefulness is an odd start. And, when you trade two of your few good assets (Walden being the other) without moving a **** contract (i.e. Johnson), it is looks like a waste. Even more so when what you get in return does not address your current issues (hitting) or your organizational depth issues (outfield / corner infield). I like Shelby Miller as a pitcher, just not this trade.

As it pertains to the rebuild for 2017, that may be the plan, but it is being poorly executed. So far, we have traded Heyward, Walden, Kyle Wren (AA CF), and Tommy LaStella and have received Shelby Miller, Arodys Vizcaino, 2 minor league pitchers, and extra bonus money for international signings. If a rebuild was what we wanted, we should have held Walden at the very least until the trade deadline to drive up value, use Heyward to move a bad contract or to try and fill a farm system depth issue, and fire Freddi Effing Gonzalez and get a decent manager.

On a final note, I likely sound quite hostile here but it isn't personally directed at either of you. I'm pissed at organizational direction and lack thereof.

 

[Jay Alexander]

On a final note, I likely sound quite hostile here but it isn't personally directed at either of you. I'm pissed at organizational direction and lack thereof.

Lol, thanks but I didn't think it was personal at all.

I think John Hart has inherited a baseball team with problems on multiple fronts, not the least of which are the hitting/corner infield depth/bad contract issues you brought up. He first set out to correct issues in our minor league and scouting dept and I think he's done a great job there.

Apparently, the next issue he tackled was the lack of major league innings on our club. I think Harang and Santana being out of the picture creates a significant innings problem for us and it would be silly to expect Beachy and Medlen to fill the void.

Also, we save some money with this move which could help us sign some help or be used to eat some money to ship off a bad contract.

FWIW, I still can't understand the Johnson extension for the life of me. Wren gave the kid a payday based his absolute best season of his career.

 

[TechnicalPossum]

Lol, thanks but I didn't think it was personal at all.

I think John Hart has inherited a baseball team with problems on multiple fronts, not the least of which are the hitting/corner infield depth/bad contract issues you brought up. He first set out to correct issues in our minor league and scouting dept and I think he's done a great job there.

Apparently, the next issue he tackled was the lack of major league innings on our club. I think Harang and Santana being out of the picture creates a significant innings problem for us and it would be silly to expect Beachy and Medlen to fill the void.

Also, we save some money with this move which could help us sign some help or be used to eat some money to ship off a bad contract.

FWIW, I still can't understand the Johnson extension for the life of me. Wren gave the kid a payday based his absolute best season of his career.

I can see that, but at some point, assets would need to be leveraged for position players to build a complete team, which may be coming for J. Upton If we are truly in a rebuild mode, let Hale pitch a full season to see what we have like we did with Delgado before we traded him instead of getting Miller. Also, if these two years are essentially sunk years, it would be the perfect time to see what is left in Beachy and Medlen after TJ surgery. I wouldn't mind bring back Harang on a 1 year deal with a club option/500k-1M buyout for a second year. What scares me is the way that Miller (granted in a relatively small sample size) regressed. His WHIP, IP, and SLG against were essentially identical in 2013 and 2014, but the ERA spiked, the K/9 dropped from 8.8 to 6.3 and the K/BB decreased from 3 to 1.7 (in short walking more people and missing less bats without giving up many more XBH). These are the things that McDowell can likely work with, but it is a question to me of it being a sophomore slump or a true regression.

And yeah, giving Johnson that contract was absurd given that his career season was fueled by a .394 BABIP. For perspective, Ty Cobb had a BABIP of .383, Joey Votto of .362, and Derek Jeter of .354 over their entire careers.

And now for the blasphemy - If this is a true rebuild, Kimbrel should be traded.

 

[Jay Alexander]

I think Miller's regression had more to do with an injury versus true regression, but like anything, we'll find out. I really think he's has the potential to perform at a Teheran level for the next several seasons, and if so, it would be hard to say this is a bad trade...unless of course Heyward reaches his potential and starts hitting .320 with 30 homers every season.

Realistically, the only contract I think we can move is Johnson's. The cost to move BJ would be devastating and our other player's contracts are market value type deals.

For what it's worth, I thought we should have traded Kimbrell last year before we signed him to an extension...I felt like he provided the best value at that point in time. As to whether or not we move him now all depends what we can get. Maybe package him with Johnson?

 

[TechnicalPossum]

If Kimbrel goes, BJ has to go with him. Johnson has a bad contract, but not so bad it couldn't be eaten if necessary. That and Johnson would be a useful bench bat. Kimbrel is the most valuable trade piece short of Wood or Teheran in my eyes.

 

[Jay Alexander]

I like the idea, just don't see it happening. No one is going to pick up BJ's money with him batting .200 and missing balls in the outfield.

 

[Peacone36]

As an outsider (non Atlanta native, resident, fan) I think Braves fans are over valuing Heyward. He never really lived up to his potential and seems to be dinged up a lot.

 

[bat_082994]

As an outsider (non Atlanta native, resident, fan) I think Braves fans are over valuing Heyward. He never really lived up to his potential and seems to be dinged up a lot.

Completely agree

 

[Jay Alexander]

As an outsider (non Atlanta native, resident, fan) I think Braves fans are over valuing Heyward. He never really lived up to his potential and seems to be dinged up a lot.

I think it's a combination, he's overvalued in general plus he's overvalued because inspite of his mediocre offensive stats, he's been one of our best offensive producers.

 

[TechnicalPossum]

As an outsider (non Atlanta native, resident, fan) I think Braves fans are over valuing Heyward. He never really lived up to his potential and seems to be dinged up a lot.

I don't think he is overvalued by people who know what his true skill set is but his current value is not the "potential" he was brought up with. He is the best defensive right fielder in the game currently and is a decent contact hitter with a good OBP. He is not currently a 30 HR/yr slugger or a .315 hitter which is why the Braves wouldn't give him $20/yr over 10 years. His value to the Braves is also partly controlled by the lack of position player depth in the minors.

As for the dinged up part, he played 149 games last year and only played 104 in 2013 because he got hit in the jaw with a pitch and had an appendectomy (both of which were beyond his control).

If anything, the person who overvalues Heyward the most is his agent.

 

[SidewalkJacket]

I hated to see him go, too. Always liked him and held out hope he would develop into the slugging franchise player we thought he would be.

Loss of hitting does not concern me at all. Basically our offense could not get any worse than it was. What concerns me is the loss of defense. OUTSTANDING defense. And no, I don't think we'll see an OF of Gattis, BJ, JUp. I think we will move Gattis still. His power is invaluable and an AL team would love to have it. Hopefully we can package him and get a leadoff/CF.

But this is most definitely a rebuild. I also agree with a couple guys above who proposed trading Kimbrell. Should have been done earlier when his value was so high, but if we're aiming for the future, let's really do it. Closers don't have a long shelf-life.