Boston College Post Game Thread

[bke1984]

Really, that speaks to our lack of talent overall the past 6-7 years. Guys who are actual starters in the NFL are the guys who are difference makers in college football. Guys who are bottom roster players on NFL teams were generally solid college football players who get by in the NFL more on effort than talent. They are good players to have on college teams for sure but not the kind of guys who can elevate teams by themselves. Punters and Place Kickers that make NFL teams are actually extremely good at what they do, however their overall impact is less than a great position player in general.

Such a weak argument. You’re basically saying that you’re only talented if you’re an NFL starter. I guess that disqualifies Joe Hamilton, Ron Rogers, Charlie Thomas, George Godsey, Kelly Campbell, Shawn Jones, Zach Laskey…I could keep going, but that’s from quick memory.

Every one of those players elevated teams.

 

[Root4GT]

Such a weak argument. You’re basically saying that you’re only talented if you’re an NFL starter. I guess that disqualifies Joe Hamilton, Ron Rogers, Charlie Thomas, George Godsey, Kelly Campbell, Shawn Jones, Zach Laskey…I could keep going, but that’s from quick memory.

Every one of those players elevated teams.

Actually read some of the posts Stinger and I have had and you will be enlightened. And yes our talent level is not better than really anyone in the ACC. We are in a large group with much of the conference. Clearly below Clemson, Miami, FSU and UNC.

Where we really lack talent in on the DL and at LB on defense. The OL is really hard to tell. Our OL hasn't been good but it has been better than last year and the prior few years. I am not sold on our OL coach, however, that is beyond my ability to judge accurately.

Any fool can see our DL get their asses kicked every game except Wake. Heck even SC ST bullied our DL. Our LBs are nearly invisible in long stretches. How much is coaching vs player ability is a fair question. I would say both are lacking.

Why do you think our defense is so bad and has been so bad for the better part of a decade?

 

[cpf2001]

I don’t think anyone’s saying GT has Clemson’s talent but if you think the team has 85th-worst or “blown out by BG” talent/potential on the roster I think you’re missing a more likely alternative conclusion which is that the development and coaching of players was dog**** for four years and hopefully turns around but clearly hasn’t yet.

It would be hard for the GT coaches plus all the media people to whiff so badly on so many players to really have bottom-quartile “talent” potential.

 

[Root4GT]

I don’t think anyone’s saying GT has Clemson’s talent but if you think the team has 85th-worst or “blown out by BG” talent/potential on the roster I think you’re missing a more likely alternative conclusion which is that the development and coaching of players was dog**** for four years and hopefully turns around but clearly hasn’t yet.

It would be hard for the GT coaches plus all the media people to whiff so badly on so many players to really have bottom-quartile “talent” potential.

Our defense has been very bad for a decade. Is that full period bad coaching and lack of player development by the coaching staff? I agree the coaching hasn't been good, however, we have had some individuals who have stood out as very good, just not many at all and not enough to make a defense good as a unit.

 

[cpf2001]

The defense hasn’t been great in a decade but it got worse in 2018 and then somehow managed to get even worse under Collins. Did the 2014-2018 teams have the talent to perform like the Gailey teams on D? Probably not. Did they have the talent to be better than these last few years of defense? Obviously.

So has the talent cratered since Johnson’s players graduated? Was Collins simply the worst recruiter ever, worse than even Johnson, who was hardly known as a good recruiter? So has the talent level “literally any other team in the ACC can push them around” bad like games against BG or BC this year?

You don’t need a bunch of NFL studs to have a mediocre defense, but we’re staring up at mediocre from “awful” most of the time in the last five years.

So that’s the immediate question for Key: why can’t we get to at least mediocre?

 

[slugboy]

While we’re self immolating here, and convinced our coaching staff is a disaster because of our defense, it’s interesting that Colorado is absolutely last in NCAA total defense (bogus stat, but some people like it)

Opponent adjusted, their defense is #113, and ours is #85.

However, it’s been shouted loudly that we should have hired Sanders, and we wouldn’t have these defensive problems if we had.

We’re 3-4. They’re 4-3. They have a shot at 6 wins. It’ll be close.

 

[Root4GT]

The defense hasn’t been great in a decade but it got worse in 2018 and then somehow managed to get even worse under Collins. Did the 2014-2018 teams have the talent to perform like the Gailey teams on D? Probably not. Did they have the talent to be better than these last few years of defense? Obviously.

So has the talent cratered since Johnson’s players graduated? Was Collins simply the worst recruiter ever, worse than even Johnson, who was hardly known as a good recruiter? So has the talent level “literally any other team in the ACC can push them around” bad like games against BG or BC this year?

You don’t need a bunch of NFL studs to have a mediocre defense, but we’re staring up at mediocre from “awful” most of the time in the last five years.

So that’s the immediate question for Key: why can’t we get to at least mediocre?

The 2014-2018 defenses were helped by a ball control offense. The 2019 - to present defense have been awful but they have not been helped by a ball control offense. This year's defense is a major regression from last year's bottom tier defense. It's hard to be worse than this year's defense.

 

[cpf2001]

The shine has certainly come off Deion some and they have some baffling losses too so I would love to not hear that particular discussion for a year or so.

I’m not optimistic, though .

 

[cpf2001]

The 2014-2018 defenses were helped by a ball control offense. The 2019 - to present defense have been awful but they have not been helped by a ball control offense. This year's defense is a major regression from last year's bottom tier defense. It's hard to be worse than this year's defense.

Ball control offense blah blah blah. Thats why there are a bunch of stats designed to analyze beyond that, and the step change there after 2017 is still huge. https://www.bcftoys.com/2017-dfei - do we have dramatically less defensive talent than this defense?

 

[Root4GT]

Ball control offense blah blah blah. Thats why there are a bunch of stats designed to analyze beyond that, and the step change there after 2017 is still huge. https://www.bcftoys.com/2017-dfei - do we have dramatically less defensive talent than this defense?

The 2017 team gave up over 40 points in 3 games and 38 to UGA who called off the dogs early. If that's your cup of tea then go for it. That defense sucked. As I said we have been a bad defense for a decade or so.

 

[ibeattetris]

So that’s the immediate question for Key: why can’t we get to at least mediocre?

The defense is still practicing against the triple option in practice.

 

[cpf2001]

The 2017 team gave up over 40 points in 3 games and 38 to UGA who called off the dogs early. If that's your cup of tea then go for it. That defense sucked. As I said we have been a bad defense for a decade or so.

If your aspirations are to get back to a bowl as step 1 instead of to win 10 games the difference between “bad” and “worst in the country” is a big one.

This ain’t a hard distinction.

is your conclusion really “this GT defense has less talent than any team that slowed down BG or BC”?

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I only take umbrage with your argument because we've beaten teams with better talent, teams ranked higher than us, and played Georgia tough for a half. Clearly there's talent on the team or else we're not winning against teams that are clearly more talented than us. But to your point, we've also lost to teams with far less talent than we have. I just find it difficult to ignore what we've done to teams like UNC the last two years, Pitt last year on the road, and Miami (with help by their coach) and say the talent we have is "overblown". It's not like GT is recruiting at an elite level (top 10) where we can just show up. Our talent is at level (#36 talent composite) that we can beat a team like Miami or UNC (both of which are within 2 tiers of us), or lose to a team like BC (whose also within 2 tiers of us). The difference between maximizing talent and wasting talent is coaching.

Just for kicks, I went and looked at CPJ's talent composite his last 4 seasons (2015-2018). It was a high of #49 in 2015, and a low of #54 in 2017. CPJ had a low of 3 wins in 2015, and a high of 9 wins in 2016. That's not far off of where we're recruiting now, it's just there was a better coach leading the team. As I said earlier, the talent band in the ACC is that which most teams are pretty evenly matched outside of the elite recruiting teams.

If you want to say that our talent is overblown, it's well within your right. However, you're ignoring some wins that goes against what you're saying.

Sure. I get what you are saying. It’s a good argument.

But, and lots of people on this site would disagree with me on this, I don’t think talent rankings are always accurate. That’s really all I’m saying. Collins improved the “ratings” but I’m just doubting that there was a massive increase in the actual talent. I didn’t always think this and I’ve been slow to come around to it.

If CPJ’s last team won 7 games and then the 3 subsequent seasons we barely won 3 each year that’s a significant fall off. At the time we said things like “transitioning from the option…blah, blah, blah” and came up with lots of other excuses.

There are so many factors and parts of this that have been argued endlessly during the CPJ vs CGC debates I have no appetite for rehashing them.

So much could be said but I doubt we’ll get anywhere. I just have my doubts that CGC was actually recruiting as well as we thought at the time. He was hired for two reasons, not counting a shortage of bargain basement candidates, he had a good record as coach and supposedly he could recruit. In my opinion he crashed and burned on both counts which has had a dramatic impact on the program that we are still trying to recover from.

Good coaching will help. But that also will require better recruiting in the long run.

 

[g0lftime]

Actually read some of the posts Stinger and I have had and you will be enlightened. And yes our talent level is not better than really anyone in the ACC. We are in a large group with much of the conference. Clearly below Clemson, Miami, FSU and UNC.

Where we really lack talent in on the DL and at LB on defense. The OL is really hard to tell. Our OL hasn't been good but it has been better than last year and the prior few years. I am not sold on our OL coach, however, that is beyond my ability to judge accurately.

Any fool can see our DL get their asses kicked every game except Wake. Heck even SC ST bullied our DL. Our LBs are nearly invisible in long stretches. How much is coaching vs player ability is a fair question. I would say both are lacking.

Why do you think our defense is so bad and has been so bad for the better part of a decade?

Is there any real leadership on the defense? I would expect one bad a$$ linebacker to rally the defense vocally when we need a stop. Maybe it's there and I don't see it. HK has taken that role on offense but the QB needs to be the leader by default.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Is there any real leadership on the defense? I would expect one bad a$$ linebacker to rally the defense vocally when we need a stop. Maybe it's there and I don't see it. HK has taken that role on offense but the QB needs to be the leader by default.

I’ve never liked calling out individual players by name (and it’s actually against the rules on this site) but there are some players on defense that have a bigger reputation than is warranted by their actual play. I kind of marvel when certain names are mentioned as being strong players for the defense but I keep my mouth shut.

I’m actually impressed with our secondary and can’t imagine how good they would be with a pass rush or defensive line that didn’t let running backs get to the second level so regularly.

 

[Root4GT]

If your aspirations are to get back to a bowl as step 1 instead of to win 10 games the difference between “bad” and “worst in the country” is a big one.

This ain’t a hard distinction.

is your conclusion really “this GT defense has less talent than any team that slowed down BG or BC”?

It would appear that our DL and LBs are or we have the worst DL and LB coaches in the Country. Likely a combination of both.

 

[ThatGuy]

Wish I could like this twice for reference to A-Aron.

 

[Oldgoldandwhite]

We could use a step up with regards to all positions. Young players, still might shine, but some of the older guys never will. Time to hit the portal.

 

[AugustaSwarm]

Sure. I get what you are saying. It’s a good argument.

But, and lots of people on this site would disagree with me on this, I don’t think talent rankings are always accurate. That’s really all I’m saying. Collins improved the “ratings” but I’m just doubting that there was a massive increase in the actual talent. I didn’t always think this and I’ve been slow to come around to it.

Good coaching will help. But that also will require better recruiting in the long run.

I think you are conflating talent with results. Talent can be present, but not utilized or fulfilled. Darren Waller is an easy example. He's become one of the best TEs in the NFL. He was good at Tech, but never fulfilled his potential (aka his talent) at Tech.

I bring this up to say the lack of good coaching prevented the talent from developing. So, I believe TFG did increase the talent level, but was so bad as a coach that the talent "withered on the vine".

And I agree 100% that better coaching will help. That's literally half of the equation. I also agree that better recruiting will help - that's the other half of the equation. We need to improve both.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I think you are conflating talent with results. Talent can be present, but not utilized or fulfilled. Darren Waller is an easy example. He's become one of the best TEs in the NFL. He was good at Tech, but never fulfilled his potential (aka his talent) at Tech.

I bring this up to say the lack of good coaching prevented the talent from developing. So, I believe TFG did increase the talent level, but was so bad as a coach that the talent "withered on the vine".

And I agree 100% that better coaching will help. That's literally half of the equation. I also agree that better recruiting will help - that's the other half of the equation. We need to improve both.

Darren Waller is a strange example to use to illustrate your point. He helped us win some big games at Tech and I always thought he was good. Some of his “late bloomer” attributes we now know were off the field personal struggles. Matthew Stafford at uga has similar struggles but seems to be “evolving” in the opposite direction.