Boston College Post Game Thread

slugboy

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
11,491
Here are our FEI defense numbers.
Rk
Team
Rec
FBS
DFEI
DDE
Rk
DPD
Rk
DAY
Rk
DPP
Rk
85​
Georgia Tech​
3-4​
2-4​
-.12​
-.26​
105​
2.70​
107​
.578​
125​
6.65​
122​

Our unadjusted numbers are bottom of FBS. We get moved up to 85 based on strength of schedule
DDE = drive efficiency (we give up first downs)
DPD = points per drive (we give up lots of points)
DAY = available yards percentage (we give up more yards than average after adjusting for field position)
DPP = yards per play (we give up yards in big chunks)

There’s no “well we’re good at this one thing”. It’s bad at everything.

Here are the F+ (FEI and SP+ combined numbers)

Rk
Team
F+
OF+
Rk
DF+
Rk
SF+
Rk
77​
Georgia Tech​
-.21​
.08​
60​
-.42​
84​
-.38​
88​
Even our offense isn’t bowl worthy, but it’s our best unit
 

Oldgoldandwhite

Helluva Engineer
Messages
5,762
Things I get tired of:
*Blocking with the hands. I know this is the current trend, but as an old OL, nothing like shoulder blocking your opponent on his butt or driving him 10 yards.
*Not being aggressive on Defense. Get after their butt and gang tackle. When you play us, know you’re in a dog fight.
*Playing hard nose FB. Being the aggressor on every play.
*Snapping the ball deep on short yardage.
*Save your timeouts until near the end of the half. If you’re not prepared, that’s coaching.
*Pi$$ poor halftime and forth quarter adjustments.
Rant over.
 

leatherneckjacket

Helluva Engineer
Messages
2,078
Location
Atlanta, GA
Here are our FEI defense numbers.
Rk
Team
Rec
FBS
DFEI
DDE
Rk
DPD
Rk
DAY
Rk
DPP
Rk
85​
Georgia Tech​
3-4​
2-4​
-.12​
-.26​
105​
2.70​
107​
.578​
125​
6.65​
122​

Our unadjusted numbers are bottom of FBS. We get moved up to 85 based on strength of schedule
DDE = drive efficiency (we give up first downs)
DPD = points per drive (we give up lots of points)
DAY = available yards percentage (we give up more yards than average after adjusting for field position)
DPP = yards per play (we give up yards in big chunks)

There’s no “well we’re good at this one thing”. It’s bad at everything.

Here are the F+ (FEI and SP+ combined numbers)

Rk
Team
F+
OF+
Rk
DF+
Rk
SF+
Rk
77​
Georgia Tech​
-.21​
.08​
60​
-.42​
84​
-.38​
88​
Even our offense isn’t bowl worthy, but it’s our best unit
Our total ranking makes no sense. How can we be 85th in defensive efficiency and over 100 in every other metric?
 

RamblinRed

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Featured Member
Messages
5,862
Our total ranking makes no sense. How can we be 85th in defensive efficiency and over 100 in every other metric?
2 things.
First, he didn't show the one category where the D ranked high, DTO (% of opponent drives that end in an INT or fumble) .167 (rank 13th - which matches our national ranking in TO forced). That's basically the Wake and Miami games with their 5 TO in both games.
Second, the metrics he is showing are unadjusted, the final Defensive FEI metric is adjusted based on your strength of schedule. So basically the fact GT has played a harder than avg FBS schedule is pulling the DFEI number up to 85 from what the unadjusted numbers would suggest.

This site updates the FEI numbers every week.

The stats to this point say GT is an avg FBS (and below avg P5 program - 19 P5 programs worse than GT) in terms of offense and a below average (really bad P5 - only 5 P5 teams rank worse) defensive team.
 
Last edited:

57jacket

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Messages
1,485
I disagree with you on this. We have lacked overall talent for at least 6-7 years as compared to our ACC competitors. Our recruting has not delivered the players who are above average in most cases. We clearly haven't developed much talent either. Our OL and DL get pushed around all the time and have for years. CJPs scheme negated the need for physically superior OL for the most part but when he did have physically superior OL his offense kicked ***.

In my view you are simply avoiding trying to name the really talented defensive players we have had the past 6-7 years.
CJP could win with less talent than any coach I've ever seen.. But his last 2 years he had even less. He left an empty roster. Collins was a better recruiter but a terrible coach, and his recuiting died after 2 years. We really have a weak roster, and I believe it will take another year or 2 to be really competitive. Of course the tranfer portal really changes the timetable. As I've stated before, our NIL this year should target transfer Linemen (mainlyDL) and LBs. The secondary can cover people only so long. To think Key was going to win cosistently with this roster ( and I was hoping he could) was too optimistic. But to blame him is unfair. Yes, there have been coaching mistakes. What program doesn't have those. I believe he is doing a good job ( except BG) with what he has.
 

slugboy

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
11,491
2 things.
First, he didn't show the one category where the D ranked high, DTO (% of opponent drives that end in an INT or fumble) .167 (rank 13th - which matches our national ranking in TO forced). That's basically the Wake and Miami games with their 5 TO in both games.
Second, the metrics he is showing are unadjusted, the final Defensive FEI metric is adjusted based on your strength of schedule. So basically the fact GT has played a harder than avg FBS schedule is pulling the DFEI number up to 85 from what the unadjusted numbers would suggest.

This site updates the FEI numbers every week.

The stats to this point say GT is an avg FBS (and below avg P5 program - 19 P5 programs worse than GT) in terms of offense and a below average (really bad P5 - only 5 P5 teams rank worse) defensive team.
FWIW, I did actually say “our strength of schedule pulls us up to 85” and that the other numbers were unadjusted ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

Techster

Helluva Engineer
Messages
18,235
I have to be honest, after four years of people yacking about how great a recruiter Collins was, I’ve grown very skeptical of how much talent we actually have. Just because a player has a certain number of stars by their name out of high school doesn’t mean they are necessarily going to ball out in college. Other than a few players like Gibbs I think the talent on the field was not substantially better than we saw in CPJ’s last year.

Folks can dispute that all they like but results on the field don’t lie. CGC was a lousy coach but if the talent was so much better than previous years then even a lousy coach could get you at least five wins.

I will have to respectfully disagree with that bolded part. Most teams in the ACC recruit within 2 tiers of each other. Clemson is the only team in the ACC that recruits in the elite tier (top 10), and Miami is just outside of it (#12). UNC comes in at #17. As we saw, GT can compete with UNC (who we beat under Collins), and Miami as we're fairly close in terms of talent level (within 2 tiers), however, since the majority of our schedule is against ACC teams plus UGA (elite level recruiting) a lousy coach isn't getting at least 5 wins...and we did not under CGC. Key, who I think is a much better coach than Collins, got 4 wins (out of 8 games) for us and would have probably gotten more wins.

Collins was a criminally bad coach. He stunted the growth of our OL and DL which was documented when Key said Collins didn't like to contact drills at full speed and we didn't scrimmage much with our full team during the season. How in the heck are our players supposed to improve and develop when they have one hand tied behind their back? When the teams throughout your conference recruits in the same talent band (or better), and your coaching is very bad (or lousy as you put it), there's no way you're getting to 5 wins (out of 12-13 games). I believe we lost to non P5 programs every year under Collins? Someone correct me if I'm wrong because I'm not wasting anymore time on Collins.
 

stinger78

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Messages
4,333
I disagree with you on this. We have lacked overall talent for at least 6-7 years as compared to our ACC competitors. Our recruting has not delivered the players who are above average in most cases. We clearly haven't developed much talent either. Our OL and DL get pushed around all the time and have for years. CJPs scheme negated the need for physically superior OL for the most part but when he did have physically superior OL his offense kicked ***.

In my view you are simply avoiding trying to name the really talented defensive players we have had the past 6-7 years.
Root, I've already named them in post #267 above.

I have previously stated that we have been at a deficit of talent but should have been able to win more games - Citadel, NIU, BGSU, and UVA come to mind immediately. You keep moving the goalposts.

You said this: "White is the only "Good" DL at GT in years"

I responded this: "We’ve had several defensive players make NFL rosters. Fewer offensive players but still some. While we weren’t deep, there has been talent on the team. The greatest scarcity, however, has been both lines, and what we had at DL portalled out."

Other talented DL that we have had were Jordan Dominek, Jared Ivey, and Akelo Stone along with Keon White. Dominek transferred to Arkansas. Ivey and Stone transferred to Ole Miss. Was that because they're no good? If I'm not mistake, both got a good bit of PT against us a month ago. That's 4 DL right there.

Her's the skinny, though: If you cannot agree with that, then we probably just need to agree to disagree.
 

Northeast Stinger

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Messages
10,790
I will have to respectfully disagree with that bolded part. Most teams in the ACC recruit within 2 tiers of each other. Clemson is the only team in the ACC that recruits in the elite tier (top 10), and Miami is just outside of it (#12). UNC comes in at #17. As we saw, GT can compete with UNC (who we beat under Collins), and Miami as we're fairly close in terms of talent level (within 2 tiers), however, since the majority of our schedule is against ACC teams plus UGA (elite level recruiting) a lousy coach isn't getting at least 5 wins...and we did not under CGC. Key, who I think is a much better coach than Collins, got 4 wins (out of 8 games) for us and would have probably gotten more wins.

Collins was a criminally bad coach. He stunted the growth of our OL and DL which was documented when Key said Collins didn't like to contact drills at full speed and we didn't scrimmage much with our full team during the season. How in the heck are our players supposed to improve and develop when they have one hand tied behind their back? When the teams throughout your conference recruits in the same talent band (or better), and your coaching is very bad (or lousy as you put it), there's no way you're getting to 5 wins (out of 12-13 games). I believe we lost to non P5 programs every year under Collins? Someone correct me if I'm wrong because I'm not wasting anymore time on Collins.


The talent level under Collins was overestimated. If the talent had been as good as advertised then comparing tiers of talent in the ACC would make sense and your argument would be sound.

No one has to tell me what a bad coach Collins was. But the entire premise of hiring Collins, the rationale of his “let’s have fun” style, and the reason so many on this site defended him to the end, was that he had dramatically improved recruiting, and this level of elite recruiting could overcome a multitude of sins.

Clearly, he not only didn’t recruit at as high a level as promised, but, he turned out to not be a very good judge of talent. Not every 3 and 4 star talent coming out of high school ends up playing at their projected level and I think Collins whiffed on more than his fair share. At Temple Collins “appeared” to be a decent coach even though some of us were skeptical. But, having enough good players, many recruited by previous coaches, seemed to cover up his incompetence.
 

ThatGuy

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Messages
974
Location
Evergreen, CO
Collins was a criminally bad coach. He stunted the growth of our OL and DL which was documented when Key said Collins didn't like to contact drills at full speed and we didn't scrimmage much with our full team during the season. How in the heck are our players supposed to improve and develop when they have one hand tied behind their back? When the teams throughout your conference recruits in the same talent band (or better), and your coaching is very bad (or lousy as you put it), there's no way you're getting to 5 wins (out of 12-13 games). I believe we lost to non P5 programs every year under Collins? Someone correct me if I'm wrong because I'm not wasting anymore time on Collins.
I agree with everything you said, and I would like to add something (although I hate to continue the Collins thread, but I think it's relevant to our current state):

In addition to not developing as players due to having their hands tied behind their backs in practice, I think there's a more insidious thing that was left behind by TFG - and it relates to attitude.

A recent post in another thread (I believe it was discussing Clemson) mentioned the fact that most of these kids have been told they're exceptional their entire lives - and it's not until they get to a P5 school and see the internal and external competition knock them on their a$$ that they get the wakeup call that they need to step up, work harder, and earn their position on the roster and the results that follow. They're no longer the alpha, and they need to show the coaches that they can perform - or be ready to sit down if they don't.

For some reason, I consistently come back to the ugly loss to Pitt, where TFG tried to brush off Pat Narduzzi (who, admittedly, was being a tool by not letting go of CGC's hand). After the game, when asked about it, in a matter-of-fact/dismissive voice he said something like, "No, I wasn't disrespecting him, and I wasn't going to chew out the refs - we just had a tough loss, and I really wanted to get to our guys and make sure they were okay."

After the BG game, and Key's post-game comments, I thought of TFG's statement again. Now, I wasn't in the locker room after the Pitt game, or affiliated with the program in any way besides being a fan, so I don't know what TFG actually said to the team in the locker room after the loss, or at the next practice. But I think about it and get a striking contrast to what I expect was CBK's reaction in the locker room, or at the next practice. One of those coaches' approach feels like coddling - continuing to try and make the team feel like they're the best athletes in the world, just like their parents and coaches told them since Pop Warner. The other I expect will feel like a "Come to Jesus" moment with your boss - and that boss is angry and speaking with fire behind every word, letting you know that you better shape up or ship out.

I believe this is why Key emphasized "toughness" so much about the football team he's trying to build - almost to the point of sounding like a broken record in the offseason. Not because of facing tough teams, necessarily, or of getting hit hard - but of being able to own your own performance, and be able to know when you've screwed up and stand up and get better. Not to expect to start because it's guaranteed, or to have fun practices that are more like a party than work.

All of that is to say: in a single offseason, you can correct (or at least make a lot of improvement on) bad habits gained through lack of reps. More reps = changing behavior. But attitude is something that is instilled over years - and it takes even longer to change course when it's engrained. That's the true disservice I see TFG as leaving on our team, its players, and our program: them not being prepared to hear "You done f*cked up A-aron", and know they have work to do. Them expecting a coach to come in and tell them, "Guys, it's all good, that loss was a fluke, you'll do better next week." Then go back to pumping the music and playing 2-hand touch at practice. Correcting those attitudes is going to take some time...unfortunately.
 

Techster

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Messages
18,235
The talent level under Collins was overestimated. If the talent had been as good as advertised then comparing tiers of talent in the ACC would make sense and your argument would be sound.

No one has to tell me what a bad coach Collins was. But the entire premise of hiring Collins, the rationale of his “let’s have fun” style, and the reason so many on this site defended him to the end, was that he had dramatically improved recruiting, and this level of elite recruiting could overcome a multitude of sins.

Clearly, he not only didn’t recruit at as high a level as promised, but, he turned out to not be a very good judge of talent. Not every 3 and 4 star talent coming out of high school ends up playing at their projected level and I think Collins whiffed on more than his fair share. At Temple Collins “appeared” to be a decent coach even though some of us were skeptical. But, having enough good players, many recruited by previous coaches, seemed to cover up his incompetence.

Sorry, but the premise of your original argument "CGC was a lousy coach but if the talent was so much better than previous years then even a lousy coach could get you at least five wins." is what we're discussing.

Posters love to post about "straw man" arguments, but your 5 win mark delineation would be the definition of a straw man argument. That disregards strength of schedule, and other factors...and GT typically has one of the hardest schedules in the country. Our talent may have been "overestimated" as you like to say, but it was good enough to beat ranked teams like Pitt (#46 talent composite in 2022) and UNC (#16 in 2022) on the road and helped Key to a 4-4 interim record. It's easy to say talent is overestimated if the wrong person is in charge of that talent.

I don't care how good your talent is, you're not going to overcome bad coaching and almost nonexistent player development. Not only was he a terrible coach, he also stunted the development of the talent we brought in. When we actually had a good coach who emphasized the CORRECT way to practice, and Key is a better coach than Collins, we actually did better as our win against Pitt and UNC on the road and our 4-4 record under Key proves. Talent is not going to overcome a coach who can't coach or develop that talent. You're arguing something that Key's record after Collins got the boot proves your premise wrong.

I agree with you that Collins did not recruit to the "elite" level he loved to spit out on any and every mic put in front of him, but he did improve our talent base...though not to the degree he promised. As others have pointed out, our issue with talent is more WHERE that talent is, and not in overall talent. If you want to argue that we don't have enough talent at important positions like OL/DL/LB, I would stand in line right behind you. The other problem, as I pointed out earlier, is a LOT of our talent that helped our recruiting rankings, have left for other schools. How different does our DL look with Akelo Stone (Ole Miss), Jared Ivey (Ole Miss), and Jordan Dominek (Arkansas, Colorado)? How different does our offense look with Nate McCollum (UNC) and Jahmyr Gibbs ('Bama, NFL)? Outside of Gibbs who would have been in the NFL this year regardless of his 'Bama transfer, every other one of those players I named would still be eligible for GT right now.
 

Techster

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Messages
18,235
I agree with everything you said, and I would like to add something (although I hate to continue the Collins thread, but I think it's relevant to our current state):

In addition to not developing as players due to having their hands tied behind their backs in practice, I think there's a more insidious thing that was left behind by TFG - and it relates to attitude.

A recent post in another thread (I believe it was discussing Clemson) mentioned the fact that most of these kids have been told they're exceptional their entire lives - and it's not until they get to a P5 school and see the internal and external competition knock them on their a$$ that they get the wakeup call that they need to step up, work harder, and earn their position on the roster and the results that follow. They're no longer the alpha, and they need to show the coaches that they can perform - or be ready to sit down if they don't.

For some reason, I consistently come back to the ugly loss to Pitt, where TFG tried to brush off Pat Narduzzi (who, admittedly, was being a tool by not letting go of CGC's hand). After the game, when asked about it, in a matter-of-fact/dismissive voice he said something like, "No, I wasn't disrespecting him, and I wasn't going to chew out the refs - we just had a tough loss, and I really wanted to get to our guys and make sure they were okay."

After the BG game, and Key's post-game comments, I thought of TFG's statement again. Now, I wasn't in the locker room after the Pitt game, or affiliated with the program in any way besides being a fan, so I don't know what TFG actually said to the team in the locker room after the loss, or at the next practice. But I think about it and get a striking contrast to what I expect was CBK's reaction in the locker room, or at the next practice. One of those coaches' approach feels like coddling - continuing to try and make the team feel like they're the best athletes in the world, just like their parents and coaches told them since Pop Warner. The other I expect will feel like a "Come to Jesus" moment with your boss - and that boss is angry and speaking with fire behind every word, letting you know that you better shape up or ship out.

I believe this is why Key emphasized "toughness" so much about the football team he's trying to build - almost to the point of sounding like a broken record in the offseason. Not because of facing tough teams, necessarily, or of getting hit hard - but of being able to own your own performance, and be able to know when you've screwed up and stand up and get better. Not to expect to start because it's guaranteed, or to have fun practices that are more like a party than work.

All of that is to say: in a single offseason, you can correct (or at least make a lot of improvement on) bad habits gained through lack of reps. More reps = changing behavior. But attitude is something that is instilled over years - and it takes even longer to change course when it's engrained. That's the true disservice I see TFG as leaving on our team, its players, and our program: them not being prepared to hear "You done f*cked up A-aron", and know they have work to do. Them expecting a coach to come in and tell them, "Guys, it's all good, that loss was a fluke, you'll do better next week." Then go back to pumping the music and playing 2-hand touch at practice. Correcting those attitudes is going to take some time...unfortunately.

100%. That is a phenomenal point.
 

Root4GT

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Root, I've already named them in post #267 above.

I have previously stated that we have been at a deficit of talent but should have been able to win more games - Citadel, NIU, BGSU, and UVA come to mind immediately. You keep moving the goalposts.

You said this: "White is the only "Good" DL at GT in years"

I responded this: "We’ve had several defensive players make NFL rosters. Fewer offensive players but still some. While we weren’t deep, there has been talent on the team. The greatest scarcity, however, has been both lines, and what we had at DL portalled out."

Other talented DL that we have had were Jordan Dominek, Jared Ivey, and Akelo Stone along with Keon White. Dominek transferred to Arkansas. Ivey and Stone transferred to Ole Miss. Was that because they're no good? If I'm not mistake, both got a good bit of PT against us a month ago. That's 4 DL right there.

Her's the skinny, though: If you cannot agree with that, then we probably just need to agree to disagree.
Missed you prior post My bad. I agree that White, C Thomas and Ace were good college players. White was a 2nd round draft choice. J Thomas and Carpenter had a couple of good college years and could have been much better under better coaching. Carpenter was misplayed as a Safety. He simply didn't have the speed his last couple of years to play the position. He would have been a very good hybrid S/LB. J Thomas also would have been better as they type Hybrid DB/LB. That is how Dan Quinn is using Thomas this year with Dallas. He gets limited snaps on defense, generally when one of the starters gets dinged up. He is one of the Cowboys core special team players.

Still thats a fairly short list. White and Ace were very good pickups from the Portal.

The transfers out clearly hurt. None of them ever reached their potential at GT. Had they stayed we might be having a different discussion. I thought Walton was a good college player.

This year the DL and LB play is so bad it is impossible to judge the talent our DBs have. Opposing QBs, less the Wake game. have as much time as they want to throw and if they have running ability they can run at will without being concerned that a DL or LB will touch them.
 

Northeast Stinger

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Messages
10,790
I agree with everything you said, and I would like to add something (although I hate to continue the Collins thread, but I think it's relevant to our current state):

In addition to not developing as players due to having their hands tied behind their backs in practice, I think there's a more insidious thing that was left behind by TFG - and it relates to attitude.

A recent post in another thread (I believe it was discussing Clemson) mentioned the fact that most of these kids have been told they're exceptional their entire lives - and it's not until they get to a P5 school and see the internal and external competition knock them on their a$$ that they get the wakeup call that they need to step up, work harder, and earn their position on the roster and the results that follow. They're no longer the alpha, and they need to show the coaches that they can perform - or be ready to sit down if they don't.

For some reason, I consistently come back to the ugly loss to Pitt, where TFG tried to brush off Pat Narduzzi (who, admittedly, was being a tool by not letting go of CGC's hand). After the game, when asked about it, in a matter-of-fact/dismissive voice he said something like, "No, I wasn't disrespecting him, and I wasn't going to chew out the refs - we just had a tough loss, and I really wanted to get to our guys and make sure they were okay."

After the BG game, and Key's post-game comments, I thought of TFG's statement again. Now, I wasn't in the locker room after the Pitt game, or affiliated with the program in any way besides being a fan, so I don't know what TFG actually said to the team in the locker room after the loss, or at the next practice. But I think about it and get a striking contrast to what I expect was CBK's reaction in the locker room, or at the next practice. One of those coaches' approach feels like coddling - continuing to try and make the team feel like they're the best athletes in the world, just like their parents and coaches told them since Pop Warner. The other I expect will feel like a "Come to Jesus" moment with your boss - and that boss is angry and speaking with fire behind every word, letting you know that you better shape up or ship out.

I believe this is why Key emphasized "toughness" so much about the football team he's trying to build - almost to the point of sounding like a broken record in the offseason. Not because of facing tough teams, necessarily, or of getting hit hard - but of being able to own your own performance, and be able to know when you've screwed up and stand up and get better. Not to expect to start because it's guaranteed, or to have fun practices that are more like a party than work.

All of that is to say: in a single offseason, you can correct (or at least make a lot of improvement on) bad habits gained through lack of reps. More reps = changing behavior. But attitude is something that is instilled over years - and it takes even longer to change course when it's engrained. That's the true disservice I see TFG as leaving on our team, its players, and our program: them not being prepared to hear "You done f*cked up A-aron", and know they have work to do. Them expecting a coach to come in and tell them, "Guys, it's all good, that loss was a fluke, you'll do better next week." Then go back to pumping the music and playing 2-hand touch at practice. Correcting those attitudes is going to take some time...unfortunately.
Wish I could like this twice for reference to A-Aron.
 

Northeast Stinger

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Messages
10,790
Sorry, but the premise of your original argument "CGC was a lousy coach but if the talent was so much better than previous years then even a lousy coach could get you at least five wins." is what we're discussing.

Posters love to post about "straw man" arguments, but your 5 win mark delineation would be the definition of a straw man argument. That disregards strength of schedule, and other factors...and GT typically has one of the hardest schedules in the country. Our talent may have been "overestimated" as you like to say, but it was good enough to beat ranked teams like Pitt (#46 talent composite in 2022) and UNC (#16 in 2022) on the road and helped Key to a 4-4 interim record. It's easy to say talent is overestimated if the wrong person is in charge of that talent.

I don't care how good your talent is, you're not going to overcome bad coaching and almost nonexistent player development. Not only was he a terrible coach, he also stunted the development of the talent we brought in. When we actually had a good coach who emphasized the CORRECT way to practice, and Key is a better coach than Collins, we actually did better as our win against Pitt and UNC on the road and our 4-4 record under Key proves. Talent is not going to overcome a coach who can't coach or develop that talent. You're arguing something that Key's record after Collins got the boot proves your premise wrong.

I agree with you that Collins did not recruit to the "elite" level he loved to spit out on any and every mic put in front of him, but he did improve our talent base...though not to the degree he promised. As others have pointed out, our issue with talent is more WHERE that talent is, and not in overall talent. If you want to argue that we don't have enough talent at important positions like OL/DL/LB, I would stand in line right behind you. The other problem, as I pointed out earlier, is a LOT of our talent that helped our recruiting rankings, have left for other schools. How different does our DL look with Akelo Stone (Ole Miss), Jared Ivey (Ole Miss), and Jordan Dominek (Arkansas, Colorado)? How different does our offense look with Nate McCollum (UNC) and Jahmyr Gibbs ('Bama, NFL)? Outside of Gibbs who would have been in the NFL this year regardless of his 'Bama transfer, every other one of those players I named would still be eligible for GT right now.
Sure. Ok.

It’s clear we are probably just going to talk past each other.

The problem, if I’m trying to be objective, is that neither of us can prove our positions so we are arguing from our conclusion.

I don’t have to be right about this. Honestly. It’s more of a feeling that the idea that Tech has a competitive talent level is overblown. I think good coaching can help. CPJ proved that.
 

GT_B

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
665
The main thing I am most disappointed is that Key says all the right things about toughness and playing a certain way, but it’s not reflected physically or mentally by the team. We are so soft both physically and mentally in games. We have no one that wants to go lay the the lumber on someone and as soon as something bad happens in the game we just collapse the next play or series. We are just as mentally soft as we are physically. So Key can keep saying all the things he wants, but his team doesn’t reflect what he is preaching.
 

Techster

Helluva Engineer
Messages
18,235
Sure. Ok.

It’s clear we are probably just going to talk past each other.

The problem, if I’m trying to be objective, is that neither of us can prove our positions so we are arguing from our conclusion.

I don’t have to be right about this. Honestly. It’s more of a feeling that the idea that Tech has a competitive talent level is overblown. I think good coaching can help. CPJ proved that.

I only take umbrage with your argument because we've beaten teams with better talent, teams ranked higher than us, and played Georgia tough for a half. Clearly there's talent on the team or else we're not winning against teams that are clearly more talented than us. But to your point, we've also lost to teams with far less talent than we have. I just find it difficult to ignore what we've done to teams like UNC the last two years, Pitt last year on the road, and Miami (with help by their coach) and say the talent we have is "overblown". It's not like GT is recruiting at an elite level (top 10) where we can just show up. Our talent is at level (#36 talent composite) that we can beat a team like Miami or UNC (both of which are within 2 tiers of us), or lose to a team like BC (whose also within 2 tiers of us). The difference between maximizing talent and wasting talent is coaching.

Just for kicks, I went and looked at CPJ's talent composite his last 4 seasons (2015-2018). It was a high of #49 in 2015, and a low of #54 in 2017. CPJ had a low of 3 wins in 2015, and a high of 9 wins in 2016. That's not far off of where we're recruiting now, it's just there was a better coach leading the team. As I said earlier, the talent band in the ACC is that which most teams are pretty evenly matched outside of the elite recruiting teams.

If you want to say that our talent is overblown, it's well within your right. However, you're ignoring some wins that goes against what you're saying.
 
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awbuzz

Helluva Manager
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The main thing I am most disappointed is that Key says all the right things about toughness and playing a certain way, but it’s not reflected physically or mentally by the team. We are so soft both physically and mentally in games. We have no one that wants to go lay the the lumber on someone and as soon as something bad happens in the game we just collapse the next play or series. We are just as mentally soft as we are physically. So Key can keep saying all the things he wants, but his team doesn’t reflect what he is preaching.
Hard, okay impossible, to make a silk purse out of sows ears.
 

kittysniper101

Jolly Good Fellow
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174
I think we should take this as an opportunity to review the wins we’re talking about over UNC and Pitt last year.
This article shows how Key’s interim job outperformed our post game win expectancy by 1.5 games. That’s a really high mark over a fraction of the season. I certainly had fun watching these games, but I also felt like we were gifted them just as much (or more) than we earned them by pitt dropping at least 2 ints and Down’s dropping the wide open TD. I know Key has at least another year to prove himself and I’ll give him my full support while he’s here, but there are definitely trends and early signs that are concerning.

 
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