Attn: Ibeeballin. Would like your thoughts on Pin and Pull

[ilovetheoption]

Hey man,

Year 2 of being running game coordinator for my brother's H.S. team.

I'm fundamentally not a fan of zone running anyhow, because I think football is a game of aggression and I don't like the passivity of zone blocking.

THAT SAID, we put in inside zone and outside zone because they're dead simple installs, and the kids had run it the year before and they could run it day one of practice.

I intend to never run outside zone again in my life. It's a bull**** play that relies on having really good offensive linemen, and a really good back, and at a school as small as ours we can't count on that.

I also believe in threatening every quadrant of the field, to keep you guys honest.

So, outside running game. Options are:
1) Toss
2) Jet Sweep
3) Double option (we quickly gave up on trying to read the dive. That's strictly called now, and almost never called)
4) WR screen game

5) Pin and Pull? I've never learned a ton about it, but it seems to be the new hotness. Josh Gattiss seems to love it to death, and I'm a fan of some of the stuff he does.

What are your thoughts dude? Tough to defend? Got anybody in particular you'd look at because they do it nicely? What would you do to attack it?

 

[Dottie1145]

Glad to see your name on the swarm again. Hope all is well on your end. Now, just ready for @Ibeeballin to come spill some solid X’s and O’s.

 

[Ibeeballin]

Pin & pull is essentially a power play for the layman. You can get funky with it and still run your veer

You can get funky with it and add your veer scheme with it like what the Panthers did with Cam

The advantage is getting equal or more blockers to defenders. If you read your keys and fill your gaps it’s no different than stopping any other scheme.

What made this run scheme even more hard to defend is when you add RPO element to it. This pretty eliminates all defender who are in run support.

Pin and pull is a part of our scheme as well

CB Blitz is missed by the lead puller and play is blown up.RPO quick slant/ skinny post behind the curl flat safety might’ve worked here before the lineman was declared down field

 

[DeepSnap]

That just looks like an updated version of the old Green Bay "pull both guards" sweep made famous by Fuzzy Thurston & Jerry Kramer, 'cept as ibeeballin said - the lead G didn't hit the first wrong-colored jersey he saw past the LT blocking down inside.

Or is the C pulling here? Can't see it well enough in the clip, but the effect is the same.


"The more things change, the more they stay the same."
----Jean-Baptiste Alphonse Karr

 

[Ibeeballin]

That just looks like an updated version of the old Green Bay "pull both guards" sweep made famous by Fuzzy Thurston & Jerry Kramer, 'cept as ibeeballin said - the lead G didn't hit the first wrong-colored jersey he saw past the LT blocking down inside.

Or is the C pulling here? Can't see it well enough in the clip, but the effect is the same.


"The more things change, the more they stay the same."
----Jean-Baptiste Alphonse Karr

It’s a hybrid with zone blocking concepts.

yes the center pulled

 

[ilovetheoption]

Pin & pull is essentially a power play for the layman. You can get funky with it and still run your veer

You can get funky with it and add your veer scheme with it like what the Panthers did with Cam

The advantage is getting equal or more blockers to defenders. If you read your keys and fill your gaps it’s no different than stopping any other scheme.

What made this run scheme even more hard to defend is when you add RPO element to it. This pretty eliminates all defender who are in run support.

Pin and pull is a part of our scheme as well

CB Blitz is missed by the lead puller and play is blown up.RPO quick slant/ skinny post behind the curl flat safety might’ve worked here before the lineman was declared down field

No, yeah, I know what pin and pull is, I understand the concept, I know the basic OL rules (Pin under or covered, pull uncovered), and I understand the RPO constraint you put on the force defender.

I guess I'm asking you about defending it (I like to think about offense from a "what would I hate to defend" concept). You say it's no different than anything else, which I get. Conceptually football's just not that complicated. I'm more asking if you saw it as a defender, would all the eye candy give you pause, or would you just rely on having watched the film and knowing your keys and flying to the right place?

It seems like a somewhat involved install (especially for the qb reading that playside corner (and potentially the backside end if you want to add THAT constraint onto it)), so I want to get the vibe of if you think it's worth it, given we're going to have a short camp, if any.

We can always just run toss and lead option to get the ball outside in the running game, but I want to know if it's worth it to spend the time on P/P.

 

[ilovetheoption]

That just looks like an updated version of the old Green Bay "pull both guards" sweep made famous by Fuzzy Thurston & Jerry Kramer, 'cept as ibeeballin said - the lead G didn't hit the first wrong-colored jersey he saw past the LT blocking down inside.

Or is the C pulling here? Can't see it well enough in the clip, but the effect is the same.


"The more things change, the more they stay the same."
----Jean-Baptiste Alphonse Karr

The pulls aren't called, they're read. If you've got a man under you, you pin him, if you're uncovered you pull and hit the first wrong jersey you see.

 

[Ibeeballin]

No, yeah, I know what pin and pull is, I understand the concept, I know the basic OL rules (Pin under or covered, pull uncovered), and I understand the RPO constraint you put on the force defender.

I guess I'm asking you about defending it (I like to think about offense from a "what would I hate to defend" concept). You say it's no different than anything else, which I get. Conceptually football's just not that complicated. I'm more asking if you saw it as a defender, would all the eye candy give you pause, or would you just rely on having watched the film and knowing your keys and flying to the right place?

It seems like a somewhat involved install (especially for the qb reading that playside corner (and potentially the backside end if you want to add THAT constraint onto it)), so I want to get the vibe of if you think it's worth it, given we're going to have a short camp, if any.

We can always just run toss and lead option to get the ball outside in the running game, but I want to know if it's worth it to spend the time on P/P.

The first sentence was for those reading this direct convo. To give them insight on what we were talking about

 

[ilovetheoption]

The first sentence was for those reading this direct convo.

Ok, gotcha

 

[MidtownJacket]

Pin & pull is essentially a power play for the layman. You can get funky with it and still run your veer

You can get funky with it and add your veer scheme with it like what the Panthers did with Cam

The advantage is getting equal or more blockers to defenders. If you read your keys and fill your gaps it’s no different than stopping any other scheme.

What made this run scheme even more hard to defend is when you add RPO element to it. This pretty eliminates all defender who are in run support.

Pin and pull is a part of our scheme as well

CB Blitz is missed by the lead puller and play is blown up.RPO quick slant/ skinny post behind the curl flat safety might’ve worked here before the lineman was declared down field

Quality. Quality. Quality. Love it.

 

[IM79]

That just looks like an updated version of the old Green Bay "pull both guards" sweep made famous by Fuzzy Thurston & Jerry Kramer, 'cept as ibeeballin said - the lead G didn't hit the first wrong-colored jersey he saw past the LT blocking down inside.

Or is the C pulling here? Can't see it well enough in the clip, but the effect is the same.


"The more things change, the more they stay the same."
----Jean-Baptiste Alphonse Karr

The guard tried a cut block. Old habits die hard.

 

[Ibeeballin]

No, yeah, I know what pin and pull is, I understand the concept, I know the basic OL rules (Pin under or covered, pull uncovered), and I understand the RPO constraint you put on the force defender.

I guess I'm asking you about defending it (I like to think about offense from a "what would I hate to defend" concept). You say it's no different than anything else, which I get. Conceptually football's just not that complicated. I'm more asking if you saw it as a defender, would all the eye candy give you pause, or would you just rely on having watched the film and knowing your keys and flying to the right place?

It seems like a somewhat involved install (especially for the qb reading that playside corner (and potentially the backside end if you want to add THAT constraint onto it)), so I want to get the vibe of if you think it's worth it, given we're going to have a short camp, if any.

We can always just run toss and lead option to get the ball outside in the running game, but I want to know if it's worth it to spend the time on P/P.

Eye candy throws you off a lot but that also depends on the coverage as you know.

As WLB, I’m trying to blow up those pullers to my help and pray my teammates are there to make the tackle

 

[ilovetheoption]

Eye candy throws you off a lot but that also depends on the coverage as you know.

As WLB, I’m trying to blow up those pullers to my help and pray my teammates are there to make the tackle

So, juice worth the squeeze, or stand pay?

 

[Techster]

This conversation is football porn. Well done, Gents.

 

[Ibeeballin]

So, juice worth the squeeze, or stand pay?

Worth the squeeze if you have a QB who can read quickly if you’re adding RPO to it. Not sure if I’ll add read aspect for the lineman unless they are super sharp. Don’t want to make the game too complex


Here is a cool counter pin & pull I found

 

[Spalding Jacket]

The guard tried a cut block. Old habits die hard.

Actually no, its commonly taught to cut block on the back side of zone runs to cut off back side pursuit. It’s a stigma that only option teams do it.

 

[IM79]

Actually no, its commonly taught to cut block on the back side of zone runs to cut off back side pursuit. It’s a stigma that only option teams do it.

View attachment 8509

It was a joke. If there was one thing Paul preached it was everyone uses cut blocks. Just pointing it out that other offense schemes cut as well.

 

[jacketup]

Eye candy throws you off a lot but that also depends on the coverage as you know.

What does the amount of clothing the cheerleaders are wearing have to do with defending the play?

 

[Techster]

Worth the squeeze if you have a QB who can read quickly if you’re adding RPO to it. Not sure if I’ll add read aspect for the lineman unless they are super sharp. Don’t want to make the game too complex


Here is a cool counter pin & pull I found

How often do you see a CENTER pull all the way around the TE?!! Then you have RT come across the 3/4ths of the line on the next level to get the linebacker. That blocking sequence shows you how athletic and GOOD the OL in the NFL has to be. That blocking set up and execution was beautiful.

I never really appreciated the intricacies of blocking until CPJ

 

[augustabuzz]

Don't pull the pin until you're ready to toss!