Atlanta congestion, traffic, quality of life

[EE95_curse EMAG!]

Starting this as on the Football - Key's Staff thread, tomknight suggested my reasons for the small lot sizes, overbuilding of subdivisions and apartment complexes that have caused massive traffic issues are not sound. I want to hear his take.

Original post:

Don't come to ATL to raise kids. I've been here most of my life, spent most of it wihin 20 mins of campus raising a family, and, IMO, the greater ATL area is certainly not what it used to be. The worst part among many factors is the traffic. Horrible and ATL's growth is making it worse by the year. We're looking to move when I retire in 2023 and I've been reading good things also about Huntsville.

My EE95_curse EMAG! reply:

Yeah, I am way up north (still metro Atlanta), maybe 35 miles as crow flies to GT, and traffic is a nightmare all day long, NOT just morning and evening rush hour. Every time I go out I see a new housing developement or townhome or worse, huge apartment complex and never are the roads being widened or are new roads being built. The east-west state highways are now too congested. I guess its the new norm with over-population. To think some businessmen/celebrities think we're in danger of under-population in the next 20 years. I sure don't see it. I feel bad for those that moved out to the sticks 15 years ago to get away from the noise/pollution/traffic only to see dozens of new housing projects all around them and now noise/traffic/pollution. At this point, I think I'd have to go out to Ellijay or Dahlonega to get far enough north to avoid the sprawl for the next 10 years. In 20 years, they'll be just like Marietta/Roswell is now...a mess. Maybe I need to go to Alaska and hope the cold keeps the hoards away?

They should have kept a minimum lot size for homes and maximum unit size for apartments in place in some of these cities/counties. My subdivision is so tiny that cars are parked all along the narrow roads, so you have to swerve in and out. I blame greedy developers and on-the-take council members. Such a shame they can squeeze in homes on top of each other AND have such small lots/driveways that you have to park on a narrow two-way road. Should be criminal. THIS is the cause of traffic issues, too much growth in too dense of an area. CORRUPTION has never been worse than today.


tomknight replied:
@EE95_curse EMAG! - there is slmostnothing factualin ypur post, but this isn't the thread for it.

Create a different thread and I'll engage. Same thing for why MARTA doesn't go the burbs.

 

[EE95_curse EMAG!]

Okay, willing to hear tomknight take on causes for overbuilding, small lot and road sizes and traffic congestion all periods of the day.

 

[tomknight]

the issue with land use is not corruption - it is a function of GA's strong land use statutes. Developers can sue in Superior Court when denied a zoning, and they will win.

lot sizes is something locals can do something about. many of these places have learned that the hard way, and let the cat out of the bag in the 80's. Now, they are trying to recreate space to reduce lanes, add bike/ped trails, and create more mixed use environments. The goals of all of that is to reduce vehicle congestion and to lessen trip lengths. The ATL has always been plagued by long trip lengths that clog the roads. More complementary uses help to shorten those.

those northern burbs are the sprawl poster children, but back when all of that was approved, there was little they could do to stop it. growth management laws are better now, and most of those areas are adopting comp plans to include these lower trip length and single-auto reliance patterns into them.

MARTA will be developing a bus rapid transit line in the expanded median express lanes along GA 400. However, MARTA can only operate in Clayton, Fulton, and DeKalb counties. MARTA is unique nationally in its lack of support by the state. GRTA/SRTA can operate in the bigger urban areas, but has no money. So, that leaves local systems attempting to tie into a larger regional system.

Many folks OTP just don't want MARTA. They view these ITP agencies as mismanaged, and they aren't willing to pay for them. Many of the ITP agencies have earned that rep. MARTA has new management, and I think we'll see that change.

Back to land use, many of the ring counties lack non-residential development in numbers sufficient to provide residents a chance to work in their home county. Many of them realize that now, and are trying to do something about it.

Much of this mess was created in the 80's and 90's, and it will take some time to unravel.

I think the symptoms you noted are absolutely true, I just don't agree with all of the causes you cited.

 

[EE95_curse EMAG!]

Okay, I did learn quite a bit. Thanks Tom. I like to see low regulations and court system that protects rights. I am not sure how I feel about the ease of granting zoning so easily though. I'd like to see counties and cities set aside chunks of land every so many miles for a sizeable park/green area. I'd love to see mandated lot sizes and that streets must be so many feet wider than most are today. I visit my Uncle in Ohio and their subdivision roads are the equivalent of three lanes, not too narrow ones. Even if a car parks on the side of the road, there is still room for two way traffic.

I am most frustrated by my garage than isn't big enough for a mid size sedan and driveways that are not long enough to fit two cars/trucks (thus so many parking on the road). I did not choose this house, I bought it from my brother (solid deal).

The traffic is frustrating. Lights every 200-500 feet. I can take 20 minutes to go 5 miles. All that goes back to overbuilding and density without the proper infrastructure.

If there is a way to lend more voices to this, let me know. I am not sure what government agency or representative I would need to poke. I'll start with a letter to my state rep and see if I can get anything other than a canned reply.

 

[EE95_curse EMAG!]

I hope you're right on things improving. Which county or counties, in the outer metro area (fringey metro Atlanta) are setup best with protections on things such as lot sizes or size of roads or other intangibles that you know rube me the wrong way? I welcome your thoughts on that so if I go house hunting, I am looking in the best county for me. I work remotely now, but still some idiotically run companies mandate full time commuting vs remote, even when a job is all done on a computer and phone. My current position, the business unit is being bought by another company that is strictly work in office. That kills my quality of life, adding 15 hours a week sitting in a car, doing the ole gas/brake/gas/brake game for over an hour each way. I'll likely quit before I go through that. I guess in that way I see why these young people in their 20s are quitting.

I am very intrigued by the attention that the 4-day work week trials are getting and how successful they've been overall. The worker AND the employer saw benefits, better quality of life and improved productivity/revenue for employer (happy worker, better results). If I could figure out a business to start, I'd mandate 4 day work week and figure out which four days make the most sense (suppliers, customers needs, etc). Maybe M, Tu, Thu, Fri or just M-Th or maybe even M, Tu, F, Sa.

 

[tomknight]

all depends on what you want. I'll DM you some thoughts.

 

[tomknight]

One thing to do if you have the inclination: get the Master Sewer Plan for the county you are interested in. Areas without sewer, especially out in the future, will have larger lots, because it takes more land to provide septic fields. I have septic now for the first time ever, and it is actually cheaper and easier than being connected to sewer. The only downside is I can't plant anything where the drain field is.

 

[Dress2Jacket]

Okay, I did learn quite a bit. Thanks Tom. I like to see low regulations and court system that protects rights. I am not sure how I feel about the ease of granting zoning so easily though. I'd like to see counties and cities set aside chunks of land every so many miles for a sizeable park/green area. I'd love to see mandated lot sizes and that streets must be so many feet wider than most are today. I visit my Uncle in Ohio and their subdivision roads are the equivalent of three lanes, not too narrow ones. Even if a car parks on the side of the road, there is still room for two way traffic.

I am most frustrated by my garage than isn't big enough for a mid size sedan and driveways that are not long enough to fit two cars/trucks (thus so many parking on the road). I did not choose this house, I bought it from my brother (solid deal).

The traffic is frustrating. Lights every 200-500 feet. I can take 20 minutes to go 5 miles. All that goes back to overbuilding and density without the proper infrastructure.

If there is a way to lend more voices to this, let me know. I am not sure what government agency or representative I would need to poke. I'll start with a letter to my state rep and see if I can get anything other than a canned reply.

Regardless of what you want, developers stand to make more money selling bigger houses on smaller lots. They are like the ocean "working" the beach. They are relentless. Over the long term, they generally win because they stand to make a lot of money by overdeveloping land, so they are willing to spend a lot of money to push their position. Individuals, neighborhoods, and communities which fight that kind of thing are rarely able to bring enough resources to the fight to win over the long term.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I don’t necessarily want to dig too deeply into this conversation but will just posit a few points. Look at traffic flows in other cities across the country. How are they handling things, not handling things? What are the key features in each case?

Atlanta, Houston and LA have the worst traffic. Last I checked, though it’s been awhile, Atlanta had one of the worst records for pedestrian deaths. Not kind to bicyclists either.

Cities that do better despite dense populations are cities that did not cater to the automobile. On the other hand, building communities without sidewalks, bike lanes and alternative transportation forces everyone to get in their own car. Sprawl as we know it is only possible if you are designing everything around the car.

Joseph Tainter talks about the historical collapses that inevitably occur with civilizations. The gist of his analysis, in this layman’s terms, is that we lose the political will to make the changes that we already know will work. Cities require collective or communal action to thrive. If political arguments are always about personal freedom and avoiding the boogeyman of “socialism” then the developers and fast buck artists will continue to make a killing and ruin things for everyone else. Planning and zoning regulations are critical if you want to preserve the good life for as many people as possible.

 

[forensicbuzz]

I don’t necessarily want to dig too deeply into this conversation but will just posit a few points. Look at traffic flows in other cities across the country. How are they handling things, not handling things? What are the key features in each case?

Atlanta, Houston and LA have the worst traffic. Last I checked, though it’s been awhile, Atlanta had one of the worst records for pedestrian deaths. Not kind to bicyclists either.

Cities that do better despite dense populations are cities that did not cater to the automobile. On the other hand, building communities without sidewalks, bike lanes and alternative transportation forces everyone to get in their own car. Sprawl as we know it is only possible if you are designing everything around the car.

Joseph Tainter talks about the historical collapses that inevitably occur with civilizations. The gist of his analysis, in this layman’s terms, is that we lose the political will to make the changes that we already know will work. Cities require collective or communal action to thrive. If political arguments are always about personal freedom and avoiding the boogeyman of “socialism” then the developers and fast buck artists will continue to make a killing and ruin things for everyone else. Planning and zoning regulations are critical if you want to preserve the good life for as many people as possible.

I don't know about all that...but it sure sounds good.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I don't know about all that...but it sure sounds good.

Years ago I spent several weeks in Vancouver, Canada. Driving through town during rush hour the first thing I noticed was no left turn lanes or left turn signals. People accommodated other people, allowing left turns in heavy traffic. Later I noticed lots of other things like narrow roads, street parking and an almost philosophical bias against adding lanes.

Yet traffic moved far better and easier than it ever does in Atlanta.

What some cities have learned is that if you keep making it more and more convenient for drivers you are on a never ending treadmill to keep up with expanding demand and the sprawl becomes a birthing chamber for more and more cars. There need to be incentives for people to consider lifestyle changes that don’t include several hours a day or week sitting in your car.

I actually think Boston’s big dig project was a judicious way to streamline traffic without contributing to more traffic. I’ve driven a lot in Boston and in surrounding Massachusetts. People up there complain about it but I found it all a breeze compared to driving in metro Atlanta. There are lots of reasons for this but I’ll stop for now.

 

[forensicbuzz]

I live and drive in and around Chicago. Traffic here is always moving, albeit a little slowly at times. I think it has something to do with whether or not everyone is going in the same direction. With Atlanta, most people live OTP and very few live in the City and work OTP. Opposite in Chicago. Many people live in the City and work outside the City. This makes for a balanced commute in and out. There are express lanes that reverse with the traffic flow, and there are expressways that trucks (any kind of truck) is not allowed on. Believe it or not, the drivers in Chicago are more curtious and less likely to try to "jump the line" than drivers in Atlanta.

I've always had a theory about why Atlanta traffic was as bad as it was. I've lived and driven all over the US. I've driven in LA, NYC, Boston, Philly, DC, etc. It seems (like Vancouver) each City has their own driving style. In NYC, if your car fits, it's a lane. That's why you drive with one hand on the horn because sometimes your 6 across on a 4 lane road and you need to let people know where you are. In Boston, you don't look. You just go. A spot will miraculously open up and you slide in at speed at the last second. In the 90's, I saw such rapid growth in Atlanta with people moving in that there was never an opportunity for people to acclimate to the Atlanta driving style, so everyone reverted to the way they drove. That made driving very unpredictable because you never knew what the cars around you were going to do. Made for a ton of accidents, which clogs up the roads. Just my non-scientific observational theory.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I live and drive in and around Chicago. Traffic here is always moving, albeit a little slowly at times. I think it has something to do with whether or not everyone is going in the same direction. With Atlanta, most people live OTP and very few live in the City and work OTP. Opposite in Chicago. Many people live in the City and work outside the City. This makes for a balanced commute in and out. There are express lanes that reverse with the traffic flow, and there are expressways that trucks (any kind of truck) is not allowed on. Believe it or not, the drivers in Chicago are more curtious and less likely to try to "jump the line" than drivers in Atlanta.

I've always had a theory about why Atlanta traffic was as bad as it was. I've lived and driven all over the US. I've driven in LA, NYC, Boston, Philly, DC, etc. It seems (like Vancouver) each City has their own driving style. In NYC, if your car fits, it's a lane. That's why you drive with one hand on the horn because sometimes your 6 across on a 4 lane road and you need to let people know where you are. In Boston, you don't look. You just go. A spot will miraculously open up and you slide in at speed at the last second. In the 90's, I saw such rapid growth in Atlanta with people moving in that there was never an opportunity for people to acclimate to the Atlanta driving style, so everyone reverted to the way they drove. That made driving very unpredictable because you never knew what the cars around you were going to do. Made for a ton of accidents, which clogs up the roads. Just my non-scientific observational theory.

I tend to agree with all of this. My wife and I used to say that Massachusetts traffic was like a giant amoeba, shifting and morphing its shape. Drivers rarely had to break speed and, as you said, the space always opened up for a car that needed that space.

I could also comment on the different driving styles around the country. The style I like the least is Atlanta. Too many drivers are way too aggressive for traffic conditions. In the 70s and 80s people still were fairly courteous and had a mindset that “everybody has somewhere they have to be so I’ll accommodate other drivers the way I would want them to accommodate me.”

Now a particular scenario on the downtown connector goes like this. A driver is in a middle lane going 55. Another driver is going hundred weaving in an out of packs of cars. That driver comes all the way across from the left lane (because the car in front of them was only going 80) and are surprised to end up behind the guy who is going 55. They then swerve in a split second between two other cars to get around this slower pack almost clipping three different cars. What bothers me about that scenario is that way too many Atlanta drivers seem to think that is good driving. Aggression and getting to your destination 56 seconds sooner feels like a victory to them.

And don’t get me started about the different things I’ve seen fall off the back of trailers or pick up trucks. Then add rain to the mix.

 

[BainbridgeJacket]

So this past summer, I spent 2 months in a small town in Idaho (~400 people). Walking distance from the single grocery store, library, etc. Loved it. As I drove back home, I hit traffic in Nashville and just the massive volume of people on the roads was apparent the rest of the way. If not for a pressing need to get home, I would've turned around. I wish Georgia was a less attractive place to move, it's no longer the place I grew up, but unfortunately the roots run too deep to cut and run.

 

[MountainBuzzMan]

We like the midtown/garden district for the walk-ability/bike-ability. My wife and I are trying to decide our next move. We lived in midtown until Covid hit and moved back to our home is South Forsyth. But we are thinking of moving and looking for walk-ability. We are considering.

1. Midtown
2. Old Alpharetta
3. Chattanooga North Shore Area
4. A complete redo of our existing place
5. Or something crazy like downtown Ball Ground or Dahlonega or some other smalltown a little further in North Georgia

Any other suggestions?

 

[Northeast Stinger]

We like the midtown/garden district for the walk-ability/bike-ability. My wife and I are trying to decide our next move. We lived in midtown until Covid hit and moved back to our home is South Forsyth. But we are thinking of moving and looking for walk-ability. We are considering.

1. Midtown
2. Old Alpharetta
3. Chattanooga North Shore Area
4. A complete redo of our existing place
5. Or something crazy like downtown Ball Ground or Dahlonega or some other smalltown a little further in North Georgia

Any other suggestions?

Keep us posted. My wife and I are considering a move also. We live in a fairly idyllic setting in North Georgia and have a view off our back deck of national forest.

But whenever we travel we are aware that we have been missing museums, art galleries and cultural enrichments. Also, Georgia ranks 46 in the nation in healthcare access. As we get older we become more aware of how far we’d have to go if we ever had a serious health issue.

I’m looking for leads too.

 

[AUFC]

We like the midtown/garden district for the walk-ability/bike-ability. My wife and I are trying to decide our next move. We lived in midtown until Covid hit and moved back to our home is South Forsyth. But we are thinking of moving and looking for walk-ability. We are considering.

1. Midtown
2. Old Alpharetta
3. Chattanooga North Shore Area
4. A complete redo of our existing place
5. Or something crazy like downtown Ball Ground or Dahlonega or some other smalltown a little further in North Georgia

Any other suggestions?

Is Savannah on your list? It’s a very quaint, well-designed city with loads of pleasant walking but the number of people who want to live there becomes pretty apparent when you start looking at home prices. I’m nearly a full time pedestrian but I can’t suggest many places in Atlanta for what you’re looking for. You can functionally accomplish everything you need in Midtown but is it a fun and welcoming place to be a pedestrian? Not really. If money is no object, I would say Glenwood Park is a great option - such a beautiful, well-designed neighborhood from an urbanist perspective. If you want to get in on the ground floor, Downtown but expect to wait a bit for amenities.

Also just to get this out of the way from the OP - adding another lane to the highway creates induced demand. People just drive more until your congestion sucks again. And widening roads just means your kids get hit by drivers who think they can go 70 miles per hour because of the decreased risk associated with the wide road/fewer obstacles. We need to stop incentivizing people to use cars. Walkable City by Jeff Speck is a really great book if this stuff interests you. For a “pop zoning” book, I liked Arbitrary Lines by M. Nolan Gray. One of my favorite things about this stuff is how it’s very big tent stuff - you’ll can end up with socialists and libertarians at the same table for different reasons on a lot of these issues.

 

[gtie73]

Is Savannah on your list? It’s a very quaint, well-designed city with loads of pleasant walking but the number of people who want to live there becomes pretty apparent when you start looking at home prices. I’m nearly a full time pedestrian but I can’t suggest many places in Atlanta for what you’re looking for. You can functionally accomplish everything you need in Midtown but is it a fun and welcoming place to be a pedestrian? Not really. If money is no object, I would say Glenwood Park is a great option - such a beautiful, well-designed neighborhood from an urbanist perspective. If you want to get in on the ground floor, Downtown but expect to wait a bit for amenities.

Also just to get this out of the way from the OP - adding another lane to the highway creates induced demand. People just drive more until your congestion sucks again. And widening roads just means your kids get hit by drivers who think they can go 70 miles per hour because of the decreased risk associated with the wide road/fewer obstacles. We need to stop incentivizing people to use cars. Walkable City by Jeff Speck is a really great book if this stuff interests you. For a “pop zoning” book, I liked Arbitrary Lines by M. Nolan Gray. One of my favorite things about this stuff is how it’s very big tent stuff - you’ll can end up with socialists and libertarians at the same table for different reasons on a lot of these issues.

you might want to consider the Oconee lake area (exit 130 off I-20). We move here from Marietta a year ago. Never regretted the move. Life here ( and traffic) is much better.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I think what some of us here are wishing for is that Georgia catches up with 20th century research (let alone 21st century) that shows what sustainable quality communities look like.

Simple questions for any community.

Are we solving traffic problems with proven solutions or just building more lanes? Does the community have adequate sidewalks, bike lanes and mass transit? Are we encouraging sprawl by incentivizing strip developments and tax breaks for developers? What is the ratio of sit down restaurants versus fast food chains? What is the relationship in our community between commuting patterns and flex time, shift times, remote working, telecommuting and teleconferencing?

And I’m sure others could add many more questions.

 

[BainbridgeJacket]

I think what some of us here are wishing for is that Georgia catches up with 20th century research (let alone 21st century) that shows what sustainable quality communities look like.

Simple questions for any community.

Are we solving traffic problems with proven solutions or just building more lanes? Does the community have adequate sidewalks, bike lanes and mass transit? Are we encouraging sprawl by incentivizing strip developments and tax breaks for developers? What is the ratio of sit down restaurants versus fast food chains? What is the relationship in our community between commuting patterns and flex time, shift times, remote working, telecommuting and teleconferencing?

And I’m sure others could add many more questions.

Personally, I'd rather go back to the 20th century population.