Athletes Read on A 5th Grade Level

awbuzz

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While in Grad School, students are earning a stipend, sometimes as much as $2500/month. This is justified because they are paid through the funding of their research. I see no issue with a small monthly stipend in addition to the other benefits. It's not like they could get another part-time job.

The research is what they are being paid for... so it is a "job" that happens to associated with the degree.
I doubt there is anything in the NCAA guidelines that would prevent an athlete from doing the same... i.e. actually performing the research/work.
 

dressedcheeseside

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I'll just leave this here:

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johncu

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No, this is a very flawed argument.

If an illiterate Recruit is being wooed by a BCS college, then the only other player that will take that Recruit's slot is another player that has the SKILLSET the coach is looking for first and foremost, and then IF that "replacement" Recruit wants to major in Engineering, then that is a bonus.

CPJ, Saban, Urban Meyer, Malzahn or any other College HC is not going to replace "on-field talent" with a student that is serious about majoring in Engineering unless that recruit that desires to major in Engr. is at the SAME TALENT LEVEL OR VERY CLOSE.

The first, primary filter that BCS level HCs use is on-field talent, and then after that character, academics and everything else comes into play.

The most high-character recruit in the world won't get a BCS level scholly if his talent is not "close enough" to make a HC take chance on him, the same goes for the smartest recruit.

In summary the #1 criteria is talent for the game.

In the example above if your SA is waiting on Presby as his last choice, last hope, then he probably doesn't have BCS level talent.

It would probably benefit him to start contacting D-II and D-III schools to see if they have any interest.

Even at the FCS/D1-AA level many of those HCs "wait" for recruits that cannot get BCS schollies, so even at that level your SA is probably out of luck.

It all comes down to talent.

A music dept. doesn't give out a scholly/financial aid package to the student that is the smartest, they give it to the best singer or musician, that can also do the academics at that school.

There is a huge difference between talent-based schollies and academic-based schollies.

I don't think you understand my point. I'm speaking in a large-scale sense here: If all of the "student"-athletes that do not belong in college were to be replaced, then the talent level would obviously have to drop, because there are only so many elite athletes to go around, thus providing an opportunity for less talented players that are more interested in their education. Regardless of how talented the replacements are, the fact is that somebody else will get the opportunity that otherwise would NOT have. There are plenty of students (athletes or not) that are denied entrance to universities every year while you have borderline illiterate athletes taking up those spots. Do you not see the problem with that?
 

GT_B

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This problem is not an athletic issue...this has to do with core values and what society chooses as important. I love football and sports in general as much anyone I know but a kid being raised in a family who stresses academics and being educated is how this problem is changed, not an athletic scholarship. This is not meant to be a racist statement, just factual, a large chunk of black families/culture do not care 1 lick about education and whether their kids can read or write. Since this isn't important then it doesn't matter if they are struggle at school at a really young age because most likely the parents are just as uneducated as the kids. How can a kid learn to read from a parent who has the same reading level? Being educated falls on the parents and family as much as the educational system that just passes kids on when they shouldn't.
 

LongforDodd

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If you are speaking of Custis, it is my understanding that it was not the fault of Custis but one of the high schools. There is more to that story I hope someone more knowledgeable about the situation regarding Custis could speak on it in more detail.

Custis' high school is in Clayton County. That county's school system lost its accreditation for a year or so during his HS career. Perhaps that had something to do with it. IDK.
 

Eric

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Did you see the AJC this morning?

One of our recruits from last year was finally able to enroll at GT after finally passing the GA HS graduation test.

Rumor is, is that our Recruit failed one portion.

Another rumor is that HS Srs. are allowed to take the test up to 6 times in order to pass the exam.

Shouldn't GT be recruiting players and giving schollies to players that have a good chance to graduate from GT?

Since you are an educator, do you think that a Recruit that fails a portion of the GA HS graduation test 6-times, would have a good chance of graduating from GT?

When issues like this arise sometimes it is better that we just observe from a distance, rather than throw stones at others.

Rumor is wrong.
 

MWBATL

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A few comments on this thread, which I have just now seen and caught up on. This topic has been huge on my mind, and DressedChesseSide is right, there has been a lot of chatter on other boards about relaxing our entrance standards, or increasing our exceptions, in order to become competitive again in football. In truth, I myself am torn on this point.

On the one hand, we are a bit like Don Quixote tilting at windmills. Even though our issues are real, and we are doing things the 'right' way, we are almost alone in this, and it shows in our competitive results. In turn, this leads to frustration within the program, lack of excitement (and arguably) a declining fan base while the big factories continue to pile up money, facilities, etc...putting us even further behind. The ultimate path we are on seems to lead to becoming Tulane over time, or perhaps dropping down a division. OK, I will admit this is the most pessimistic view, but nevertheless, it is not impossible to see it.

Secondly, the idea often offered against being more like a factory is the damage to the GT degree. I really don't buy that argument one iota. In fact, I think a successful athletic program only helps a school with national recognition. Sure, CalTech and MIT don't need football programs to have great reputations, but they also could not field football programs at a big time level. So, be careful what you wish for. Further, Stanford grads are not condemning their university for being good at football, they are relishing it. And Stanford has The List to help its student athletes get A's in courses to remain eligible.

The argument in this thread about how the current process uses and abuses the student-athlete has made me stop and think however. It was persuasively made and thoughtful. I am still not sure now where I come down on this issue, since one can argue that these kids and their families know what the deal is when they sign up for it all, and do so anyway. Rather like the SEC factories over signing and cutting kids who don't make it. Everyone knows Saban does it, but that doesn't stop kids from signing there because "it won't happen to me".

Emotionally, I want GT to adhere to its standards. But we are being naive in the world that is run by big money, and we are falling further and further behind. I fear for GT's future with this strategy. I fear something must change.

I don't know the right course of action.
 

Oldgoldandwhite

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Speaking of the High School graduation test: It is given in March, Summer, Fall, Winter and Spring, but they have the rest of their life to pass it.
 

forensicbuzz

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The research is what they are being paid for... so it is a "job" that happens to associated with the degree.
I doubt there is anything in the NCAA guidelines that would prevent an athlete from doing the same... i.e. actually performing the research/work.
You don't think that the players (students) are contributing to their coachs' (professors') ability to generate revenue for the AA (school)? I would equate the time they put into practice and games as similar to time spent by a GRA or Student Assistant on research. I'm not suggesting that the athletes get paid, but a small monthly stipend wouldn't be unreasonable in my mind. When I say small, I mean small: on the order of $150-$250. For most it wouldn't matter, but for some, it would be huge.
 

IEEEWreck

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These players are no different than the millions of HS grads that go to JUCOs and community colleges that didn't take HS seriously and just don't know what they want to do with their life.

The problem that CFB have is that everything they do is captured by the Media.

Not too long ago before the Hope Scholly went on-line, the avg. SAT at Kennesaw St. was about 880 on the 2-part SAT, but when BCS level recruits score that, it become newsworthy for the Nat'l Media to make an issue of it.

It is not the Recruits fault that the schools that invest the most in big-time sports are not at the community college level academically.

No one cares that millions of HS grads are at the community college level academically, we only seem to care about the 3,000 or so that are talented enough to play big time sports and get those schollies each yr out of HS.

This is all kinds of wrong. Kennesaw State is not a community college. Getting through undergrad does not require being smart. This is an important point for how these athletes are getting screwed, so let's go back again:

Getting through undergrad does not require being smart.

It takes time and effort. Barring substantial learning disabilities of certain kinds, you just don't have to be that bright. Engineering (or Quantum Mechanics, or DifEQ's) isn't intrinsically any harder to learn than algebra. It seems that way to some because it takes several thousand hours of work on prerequisite subjects. Being really smart might help you take less time, but the only thing you need to pass with at least a C on any undergrad program is enough time and effort. As a student athlete, you are basically dragged by the collar into making those investments.

I think GT's program is concrete evidence of this. What it means, and this should make you want to vomit, is that those players are sliding into ignorance because their programs do not care about whether they are educated. Hell, especially at big football schools you could get 30 student/alumni volunteers per player to follow them around and make sure they go to class and study halls. Reading at a college level is not out of reach for anyone. The fact that many athletes come from racially, economically, and socially disadvantaged backgrounds does not give us a free pass to screw them because getting screwed by us is marginally better than getting screwed by the streets.

And I really can't stand the undertones of 'well, those (heavily implied: black) athletes are just dumb as a rock. It's in their nature to be lazy and foolish, so any time they get to play football is a boon we bestow on them. Clan revival's happening in Athens (just like always) so you'd better get going if you want to use slavery apologist arguments to justify college football. (Note: not calling out posters here, that's directed towards CFB fans as a whole).

There is a deleterious culture of non-academics across football. It's that very culture that hurts GT in recruiting year after year. That problem has very complex roots that involve a nexus of class and race, state educational institutions, and colleges. Maybe AD's and HC's can't correct for the fact that your highschool passed you for playing football because it's really your only shot, etc. etc. But they do control the culture of their program and their locker room. If their players do not value hard work in class like in the weight room and practice field, it is the culture they create and allow that is at fault.

I'll say this: no one in a Georgia Tech athletic program is being taken advantage of in that way. Any school that cannot boast the same ought hang their heads in shame.
 

awbuzz

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You don't think that the players (students) are contributing to their coachs' (professors') ability to generate revenue for the AA (school)? I would equate the time they put into practice and games as similar to time spent by a GRA or Student Assistant on research. I'm not suggesting that the athletes get paid, but a small monthly stipend wouldn't be unreasonable in my mind. When I say small, I mean small: on the order of $150-$250. For most it wouldn't matter, but for some, it would be huge.

$150 - $250 a month is not what I'd consider "small", I know many students that don't get that much for meal allowance much less blow money each month.
 

forensicbuzz

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$150 - $250 a month is not what I'd consider "small", I know many students that don't get that much for meal allowance much less blow money each month.
so make it less. I was thinking about $40/week, but maybe that's too much.

I remember somewhere reading that the SA's are on their own for food on the weekend. Don't know if that's true, but there was something like that.
 

awbuzz

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If they are on the meal plan, they should have food access everyday...

I also know that they sometimes get a "stipend" for housing and some use that for extra $'s (i.e. they get housing for less than they are given by rooming with others at lessexpensive digs.)
 
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Strictly playing devil's advocate here, one could argue that the majority of these kids, the ones reading at a 5th grade level, were destined to fail at life anyway w/o college football. At best, college football gives them a small chance to climb out of their circumstance and shape their destiny for the better. At worst it gives them a 4 year "vacation" from their otherwise miserable lives, a small chapter where they're treated like royalty and rock stars.
Some seventh graders, not athletes, struggle with reading because of schema deficiencies. And in math the are uncertain about 5+2. The system is broken for most, not just the promising athletes.
 

awbuzz

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Some seventh graders, not athletes, struggle with reading because of schema deficiencies. And in math the are uncertain about 5+2. The system is broken for most, not just the promising athletes.

More so for kids that have parent(s) that deem education to be important - regardless of socioeconomic background.
Also, many parents are adverse getting their kids HELP - medication, counceling, tutoring - to give the child best opportunity to at least succeed at a minimum level. Yet tyhese are the ones most likely to blame everyone else for the issue.
While each of us may be "equal" in the law, we are not all equal with mental capabilities, just like we aren't with physical abilities.
 

Mack

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A few comments on this thread, which I have just now seen and caught up on. This topic has been huge on my mind, and DressedChesseSide is right, there has been a lot of chatter on other boards about relaxing our entrance standards, or increasing our exceptions, in order to become competitive again in football. In truth, I myself am torn on this point.

On the one hand, we are a bit like Don Quixote tilting at windmills. Even though our issues are real, and we are doing things the 'right' way, we are almost alone in this, and it shows in our competitive results. In turn, this leads to frustration within the program, lack of excitement (and arguably) a declining fan base while the big factories continue to pile up money, facilities, etc...putting us even further behind. The ultimate path we are on seems to lead to becoming Tulane over time, or perhaps dropping down a division. OK, I will admit this is the most pessimistic view, but nevertheless, it is not impossible to see it.

Secondly, the idea often offered against being more like a factory is the damage to the GT degree. I really don't buy that argument one iota. In fact, I think a successful athletic program only helps a school with national recognition. Sure, CalTech and MIT don't need football programs to have great reputations, but they also could not field football programs at a big time level. So, be careful what you wish for. Further, Stanford grads are not condemning their university for being good at football, they are relishing it. And Stanford has The List to help its student athletes get A's in courses to remain eligible.

The argument in this thread about how the current process uses and abuses the student-athlete has made me stop and think however. It was persuasively made and thoughtful. I am still not sure now where I come down on this issue, since one can argue that these kids and their families know what the deal is when they sign up for it all, and do so anyway. Rather like the SEC factories over signing and cutting kids who don't make it. Everyone knows Saban does it, but that doesn't stop kids from signing there because "it won't happen to me".

Emotionally, I want GT to adhere to its standards. But we are being naive in the world that is run by big money, and we are falling further and further behind. I fear for GT's future with this strategy. I fear something must change.

I don't know the right course of action.
Me either but your post is spot on.I dont think a football players education vs a graduate has many guys upset.We know that many many of them are not going to graduate or build bridges .Cant thing of a Georgie MD who has anything bad to say about the grades or classes a football player takes at Athens yet we feel a Tech degree is cheapened.Man how we even get a recruit to talk to us is amazing.What do we offer him except math courses and a heavy engineering course of study.Yep it seems that unless you can offer a guy a road to the NFL ...we are hitting on empty cylinders.I hate to say it since I have watched tech since the early fifties but unless we get folks in who can pass we are going to be a seven and five team for years and have little chance of whipping the pups.
 
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