Addressing the Vad Lee situation

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southernhive

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Not exactly the same though. GOL left Tech after the '91 season and returned as D-coordinator in the '94 season. It's not like he was completely absent from the program. Based on what I've seen in the world of recruiting, I would have to assume that he helped recruit many of the players that were on the '94 team, and had already been in contact with many of the players he signed in the few years to follow. That gives him a bit of a leg up on anyone new coming in.

Chan was a good recruiter, but I'm hesitant to say he was great. It's not like we were signing top 20 classes every year, he just happened to land some big-time players in there...but if you look back, most of those NFL guys were not top-tier prospects coming out of high school. Look back at the 2002, 2003, and 2004 classes on Rivals. Clavin was a 4-star, not a 5, and he turned out the be one of the greatest to ever play here...look at the other 4-star guys from those classes though...did any of them go to the NFL?

The truth of the matter is that outside of the 2007 class, most of our NFL talent did not arrive at Tech with many expectations of getting to that level.

To this point, Paul's recruiting classes have not produced great results...I have to agree. However, 2011 and 2012 are basically the results of his first two classes. If we're going to give Paul credit for winning seasons in '08 and '09 with recruits that Chan signed in his 6th year as coach, shouldn't we give Paul's sixth year recruiting class a chance for the same success?

As mentioned in a previous post, coaching changes hurts recruiting. Changing coaches right now would hurt our classes over the next few seasons, but perhaps another coach would come in and win with the 6th and 7th year classes of PJ...then a few years later you might hear: "Yeah, but he's winning with Paul Johnson's recruits."

Roof will help get some studs on defense. Coupling that with the changes to the recruiting staff, let's just give it a few more years and see how it pans out with the recruiting classes he's pulled and is continuing to pull after his first two seasons.
Excellent post. I had not thought of GOL being here in the Bobby Ross era, but that definitely gives him a head start on recruiting. Plus, recruting at GT has changed since GOL left.
 

Mack

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Yep, it was either change the offense to suit Vad's skillset, or find a QB that can run the option. Otherwise, it would be more of the same. This transfer is not a surprise at all, and a reason for some optimism.
Agree didnt think he would ever come to tech either after all he was spread qb in NC and had over 5000 passing yds..Hope he does well.
 

Mack

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O'Leary's defenses were horrible! If he did not have the Fridge to bail him out on offense, his record would be on the negative side of Hades. I often used the phrase in favor of the Fridge, "He aint my brother, he is just heavy". I am sure you remember me using that phrase on the Hive. I and most others liked the Fridge, but GOL was not the catalyst for winning, it was the Fridge. Now, I am glad GOL is winning at UCF, and I hope he continues, but I never want him back at Tech.
WEll we did do some good things with GOL on defense.We certainly rushed the passer with more speed than now and we were not that bad vs the run but......and I agree..........a noodle limbed qb with a slow footed pass reciver would eat our lunch.I still remember Clemson and its third and 18 etc and tghey throw the ball and complete it.I also agree I think that Ralph is and was then best OC in the country..we ran everything it seems and man was it exciting to watch.....Naw GOL is looking at retirement and heading to Lake Oconee when that comes.
 

Mack

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Vad Lee was not considered a passing QB out of HS. That is revisionist history. He was a dual threat QB and not a highly recruited one at that. He had only a handful of high major QB offers. And I don't recall a single post on any boards questioning CPJ's decision to recruit Vad.

No one considered Vad incapable of adapting to CPJ's offense until this year. The results on the field in 2013 (i.e., not 2011 or 2012) proved it didn't work out. But it's not fair to state that he had a magical arm that was underutilized. That is completely conjecture and there is no proof one way or the other at this point.
Not to belabor the point but many of us on the other board that is now not working wondered about his ability to take punishment since at that time he was tall and kind of thin.He did have several good years throwing the ball in HS according to NC guys on the board...that may or may not be true.
 

Mack

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First post but felt compelled to do so. Some people on here are ridiculous.

1. CPJ is not a liar. Any ability to pass in this offense is predicated on the run, period. Vad could not run the option effectively. I’m sure CPJ assumed as any of you would have that a very smart and very athletic hs qb could come in and learn the option stuff. Would you rather he recruit a raw athlete and teach him how to pass or a athletic qb and teach him how to run? If VL had picked up the option he would have passed more in this offense based on what the defense gave us. We were never going to become a pass-first team and you can be sure he never promised that.

2. 50% completion percentage in this offense would be damn good. What percentage of passes in this offense are greater than 10yds? 15yds? Hint, it’s a lot. Take a look at the following stats for the top qbs in the ncaa this year. Anything jump out at you? For the lazy, I’ll summarize: Qbs with gaudy completion stats throw a lot of passes less than 10yds. VL made some great throws this season. He’s a good qb, but he never bought in to this offense. And he was in way too many obvious passing situations. http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2244447/QBCompletion.jpg

3. Our OL is above average. Any ability to run in this offense is predicated on making the right reads, period. OL was definitely not great but for what we need them to do I thought they did a good job. You can make arguments about Sewak, false starts, etc but honestly the players there weren’t the issue. No, they’re not great in pass blocking or picking up blitzers in obvious passing situations but I’m not sure we can reasonably expect that. It was obvious the offense had bigger issues than the OL.

Looking forward to next season. Wish Vad success wherever he goes. He’s a good kid.
I agree with you doubt Vad was going to set world afire and start AIR TECH but PJ probably wanted a guy who could run and throw and if we looked closely at the clipping PJ sort of said that Vad had trouble picking up the option system.Line wise we dont pass protect and that hurts since a loss and our run game sets up third and long etc but hey you don't make the right reads and this offense and others dies a painful death.We just got too predictable this year on offense and without Godhigh coming through we would have been alot worse in my humble opinion.
 

MacDaddy2

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You're wrong. You don't need a team laden with future NFL players to rise above 6-6. I venture to guess that no more than 2-3 players from this year's Duke team will end up pros, and they went 10-2. Conversely, UNC, a roster swelling with NFL talent, had a worse season than we did. x/o's are just as important, and anyone who says otherwise is plain wrong. Sorry you don't like it, but it doesn't make it less true.
We will simply agree to disagree while both cheering for the Jackets. For me, I want a program that is more than the occasional fluke 10-2 (Duke) or the consistent 7-5, 6-6 (Ga Tech). 1-15 against the big four ( Miami, VT, Clemson and ugag) over the past four years is enough for me. Will never pull against GT but the Triple Option will not work against better teams without NFL talent.
 

IronJacket7

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Really??? you don't think we'd pass more if we did it well in practice? I'm hard pressed to think that's true. Passing for the sake of passing is senseless. If we are doing it well we'll continue to do it. There were may times when - under "normal" pressure - the ball was not thrown well by VL. Ex. 1st pass of the bowl game...

No. What I am saying is this is not a passing offensive scheme. A passing QB (i.e. VL) would be more successful in a scheme that is built around the passing game.
 

IronJacket7

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Vad Lee was not considered a passing QB out of HS. That is revisionist history. He was a dual threat QB and not a highly recruited one at that. He had only a handful of high major QB offers. And I don't recall a single post on any boards questioning CPJ's decision to recruit Vad.

No one considered Vad incapable of adapting to CPJ's offense until this year. The results on the field in 2013 (i.e., not 2011 or 2012) proved it didn't work out. But it's not fair to state that he had a magical arm that was underutilized. That is completely conjecture and there is no proof one way or the other at this point.

When Brian Bohannon was here he made the comment that VL had a knack for passing the football. The timing he had was a natural gift. In HS, Vad's passing statistics were indicative of a passing QB versus a scrambling QB.

I am simply saying Vad would be better suited for a passing concept offense as opposed to the flexbone. Hence the reason he is transferring. He has recognized where is talent would be of better use.

The scheme that CPJ runs is not a passing scheme. It has run and shoot principles but it is a run based offense. You know this. But I am not sure you are following what my point is.

Vad is only incapable of adapting because CPJ is unwilling to truly adapt this offense into what would be best suited for Vad.
 

gtg936g

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I think folks give Vad too much credit. I do not know many NFL caliber QBs that could not at least learn an option offense. I agree that it may not be the best use of his talent, as he is a better passer than an option QB. Vad was either incapable, or unwilling to learn the offense the other 10 guys on O could execute. That is what sunk this ship. To open up the CPJ offense for the pass, the TO has to at least be a teal threat.
 

CuseJacket

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When Brian Bohannon was here he made the comment that VL had a knack for passing the football. The timing he had was a natural gift. In HS, Vad's passing statistics were indicative of a passing QB versus a scrambling QB.

I am simply saying Vad would be better suited for a passing concept offense as opposed to the flexbone. Hence the reason he is transferring. He has recognized where is talent would be of better use.

The scheme that CPJ runs is not a passing scheme. It has run and shoot principles but it is a run based offense. You know this. But I am not sure you are following what my point is.

Vad is only incapable of adapting because CPJ is unwilling to truly adapt this offense into what would be best suited for Vad.

I think we're pretty much on the same page and are just splitting hairs. I agree Vad is not a good fit for CPJ's offense. He also wasn't a good fit for the expanded package out of the pistol or diamond. All of this was mostly decided after we saw the results, not prior to.

Good stuff on the Bohannon quotes. I hadn't heard that. I really don't know the context, but I feel like there's a good chance his comment on Vad's passing ability was relative to what we had on campus at the time. Or it was good recruiting/coach speak.

If Vad was truly a phenomenal passing QB he would have had plenty of passing QB offers to back it up. As it was he was recruited by us and only a few others as a dual threat with the potential of expanding the playbook if it worked.
 

AE 87

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We will simply agree to disagree while both cheering for the Jackets. For me, I want a program that is more than the occasional fluke 10-2 (Duke) or the consistent 7-5, 6-6 (Ga Tech). 1-15 against the big four ( Miami, VT, Clemson and ugag) over the past four years is enough for me. Will never pull against GT but the Triple Option will not work against better teams without NFL talent.

We didn't have a lot of NFL talent on offense in 2011 and were the #16 offense (football outsiders opponent adjusted, no garbage time) ranking. Heck, we were #22 in 2012 and #24 this year.

I agree with you that our records have not been good enough but the suggestion that the problem has been our offensive scheme doesn't make sense to me.
 

56JacketDE

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O'Leary's defenses were horrible! If he did not have the Fridge to bail him out on offense, his record would be on the negative side of Hades. I often used the phrase in favor of the Fridge, "He aint my brother, he is just heavy". I am sure you remember me using that phrase on the Hive. I and most others liked the Fridge, but GOL was not the catalyst for winning, it was the Fridge.

As a starter on one of those defenses I would have to say your remark wasn't always the case.
1998 Georgia game in Athens. I believe GT trailed 19-7 heading into the 4th quarter.
Georgia had 3 possessions in the 4th quarter. Georgia went 3 and out every series. If they get a couple first downs, change field position, and eat clock, think we'd a had time to win?


Funny how Oleary couldn't win without the fridge at GT yet wins consistently without him now. Our defense allowed us to finish 10-2 and #9 in the country in the final AP poll. We were also 2nd in the conference in sacks per game and set the NCAA record for returning 7 fumbles for touchdowns.
 

AE 87

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I'm a big fan of O'Leary because he still hates Georgia, and he beat 'em.

@56JacketDE
Serious question: Do you have a feel for whether the current APR rules would have affected George's teams? Were there key guys who were not progressing toward graduation in four years?
 

56JacketDE

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The degree completion program was alive and well in during his era. People had to go to class and pass classes towards their degree. I'm sure creative solutions were reached but they were within the rules. GT has a narrow curriculum we know this.

I know y'all wont agree with me but the people I know now and knew there with chan never blamed the hill for not getting players, they blamed the recruiters... I won't name names but I would say that I was talking to the right people
 

Yellow Jacket

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Gonna miss Vad--he did as much as he could with the predictable play calling by PJ--that is the opponents defenses new what was coming there way from us
 

33jacket

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I'm a big fan of O'Leary because he still hates Georgia, and he beat 'em.

@56JacketDE
Serious question: Do you have a feel for whether the current APR rules would have affected George's teams? Were there key guys who were not progressing toward graduation in four years?

I for one dont believe apr would have been and issue with GOL. U guys went to tech. U know how rigid our degrees were with prerequisites. Just by passing classes u progress enough to meet the standard.

I believe APR and flunkgate have been excuses to have harder restrictions. Even though flunkgate involved all sports and was a hill messup not a gtaa messup, the programs took the brunt of it.
 

AE 87

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The degree completion program was alive and well in during his era. People had to go to class and pass classes towards their degree. I'm sure creative solutions were reached but they were within the rules. GT has a narrow curriculum we know this.

I know y'all wont agree with me but the people I know now and knew there with chan never blamed the hill for not getting players, they blamed the recruiters... I won't name names but I would say that I was talking to the right people

Thanks. FWIW, the current NCAA APR rules to which I was referring were put in place in 2004. I was just wondering. I was under the impression that the 10 football players of the 11 flunk-gate athletes came from GO'L's team, but I didn't know what the culture of the team was.

AND @33jacket
Thanks. My question was legitimately out of ignorance. I know when I was at Tech in the 80's it was possible to take classes that you didn't need to graduate or didn't further you toward graduation. If y'all are saying that 90+% of George's teams got their degrees or were on track to, that's great. Like I said, I'm ignorant on that. When I was at Tech, I don't think 50% of Freshman actually ended up getting their degrees.
 

33jacket

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Thanks. FWIW, the current NCAA APR rules to which I was referring were put in place in 2004. I was just wondering. I was under the impression that the 10 football players of the 11 flunk-gate athletes came from GO'L's team, but I didn't know what the culture of the team was.

AND @33jacket
Thanks. My question was legitimately out of ignorance. I know when I was at Tech in the 80's it was possible to take classes that you didn't need to graduate or didn't further you toward graduation. If y'all are saying that 90+% of George's teams got their degrees or were on track to, that's great. Like I said, I'm ignorant on that. When I was at Tech, I don't think 50% of Freshman actually ended up getting their degrees.

Well I know we had good controls in the late 90s. I am not saying it was 90%, and APR doesn't ask for 90%...what I am saying is sure we still have electives, but the electives are part of the degree...and GOL was more on top of it than Chan was initially. That is for a fact. We had APR issues initially cuz of flunkgate etc...and from like 1991 to 1996 GT football was not in great position for graduating...it began to progress under george and I think had he stayed at tech for another 5 years it would not have been an issue

you have to analyze everything from where we come from. Like with a coach who takes over a zero win program vs 7 win. Well george also took over a zero win program in the W L column, but also poor academic performance and steadily improved it. That is far different than what Chan inherited or Paul both on the field and off.
 

Matt E

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Well I know we had good controls in the late 90s. I am not saying it was 90%, and APR doesn't ask for 90%...what I am saying is sure we still have electives, but the electives are part of the degree...and GOL was more on top of it than Chan was initially. That is for a fact. We had APR issues initially cuz of flunkgate etc...and from like 1991 to 1996 GT football was not in great position for graduating...it began to progress under george and I think had he stayed at tech for another 5 years it would not have been an issue

you have to analyze everything from where we come from. Like with a coach who takes over a zero win program vs 7 win. Well george also took over a zero win program in the W L column, but also poor academic performance and steadily improved it. That is far different than what Chan inherited or Paul both on the field and off.

It is an absolute fact that GOL ran a much tighter ship than Chan when it came to class attendance. Checks from academic advisors decreased significantly when Chan started. Chan's approach was to "treat you like a man". O'Leary ruled with an iron fist but you cannot argue with the results.
 
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