ACC’s record revenue surpasses $300 million

ClydeBrick

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
961
To this point, I don't think he has to answer that question. If you concede that the students should get paid, then by setting an arbitrary number without collective bargaining, the institutions have created an unfair condition, i.e. a trust. Once you concede they have a right to compensation, then "how" is moot to the point that it "has" to be done, however.

My point is their not being compensated, period.


Without a method in advance then we basically have no way to determine how to operate a billion + dollar business that has hundreds of independent operations. If we want to pay the athletes we have to have a method to do it - one that preferably does not destroy the mechanism that generates the revenue. I would think that this should be a primary issue to have worked out.
 

JorgeJonas

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,147
Okay, we're getting somewhere. I'll try to answer y'all's questions, too.

You can't stipulate a non existent business market as the baseline. Saying that university sports is amateur is not circular but the fact. It boggles the mind that you don't understand this. Universities do not support athletic programs as a money making proposition. Most don't make money. They do it as part of a developed tradition of identity and rivalry. Having sports teams has become part of the college experience. So, the question you're asking is why am I against college amateur sports becoming professional. My answer is that I don't think that's their job.

You are correct that most athletic departments don't make money. The problem is that the football and men's basketball teams usually are profitable. The profits are drained paying for other line items in the departments' budgets. As for the experience issue, I would disagree, but even still it doesn't preclude paying players. It's a big deal at some schools, but a college experience at, say, Princeton is not less valuable because they don't play big time athletics. Lastly, if it isn't a job, can they be fired for not attending practice? If so, that sounds an awful lot like a job to me.

colleges and universities are, first and foremost, institutions of higher learning. Their purpose is to educate. The people who attend these institutions are students. Many, not all, of these institutions provide opportunities for these students to participate in extracurricular activies (in this case athletics). In addition to the collegiality and commraderie gained through these extracurricular activities, the institution gains brand recognition, which helps to promote enrollment. Since the competition is intercollegiate, there is incentive to perform well. So, the institutions provide "scholarship" opportunities to potential students that may enhance the performance of these teams who may or may not have the resources to attend said institute. This scholarship may be in the form of tuition waivers, room and board, entrance requirement waivers, etc. or any combination thereof. As a means of governance and to ensure fair play, the institutions participating intercollegially joined an association that has the ability to institute regulations to ensure the playing field is level for all the institutions. Collegiate athletics is defined as amateur sports, so there is no compensation for the the participants. Their scholarship may be contingient on their participation, but the student is not required to be on scholarship to participate.

The point is you keep saying that the universities have colluded to keep the athletes from taking advantage of a fair market and by setting what they're willing to "pay" the athletes. That's where we diverge. To me, the athletes are not being compensated for their participation in athletics. Fans use the "scholarship" and "education" as an answer to others when discussing compensation, but that's not the answer from the universities. Ask them and they'll say the student-athletes are not being compensated for their athletic ability. They're being afforded the opportunity to attend the institution and participate in the athletic endeavor by a fund generated by boosters of the institution.

I agree that the purpose, in general, is to educate. The issue I have is that, contrary to what you're saying, the athletes are specifically being "compensated" for their athletic participation, otherwise all students would have full ride scholarships. And if a university said they weren't, I'd have to work hard to contain my laugher. Why else would they recruit so hard? As for ensuring a fairer field of play, and this gets to ClydeBrick's point, if athletes are paid and Michigan or Texas or Bama have the advantage, how is that any different than what we have now? We all talk openly about the factory schools, because they get all the best players. Hell, over the past ten years, a grand total of 11 schools have played in the playoff/BCS title game (Texas, USC, Florida, Ohio State, LSU, Oklahoma, Alabama, Auburn, Oregon, Notre Dame, Florida State). It's the same schools every year. As long as the 25/85 rule is in place, nothing changes. Lastly, when I say that calling them amateurs is circular, this is what I mean - you said they can't be paid because they're amateurs, but they're amateurs because they aren't getting paid. Certainly, the coaches are making tons of money, the schools are raking in television money, and the players can be fired for poor performance. The only thing amateur about the entire enterprise is that the kids are not paid.

I think that everyone who has posted against paying players has an answer to this question. My answer is that paying players market-based wages destroys the ability for some level of parity to exist within collegiate competition. Do I think that the players deserve some level of compensation? Maybe, but as William Munny said, "deserve's got nothing to do with it". I would rather that the money generated from CFB be spent on lowering the cost for all students to attend college (opposed to collegiate sports increasing that cost) than it being spent on insane coaching salaries and facilities that the rank and file students never get to see much less take advantage of.

I guess you and I disagree. I don't see the current system as promoting parity at all. In football, it's the same 15-18 schools that compete at the top level every year. We can name them all - Ohio State, Michigan, Florida, Florida State, Alabama, Auburn, USC, Texas, Notre Dame, Georgia, LSU, etc. Same thing in hoops - it's Kansas, Carolina, Kentucky, Duke, UCLA, UConn, Michigan State, Indiana, etc. Even if a team rises up every now then - say Baylor or Butler or, hell, Georgia Tech - they can't sustain it. Allowing players to get paid might actually entice a player to come to a different school, like Tech. Maybe we take a swing at a 5'10" 190 pound kid who likes FSU and Bama as a corner, but can run like the wind and would look super sweet in a #5 jersey. Who knows. But paying players won't change the fact that certain schools will get the best players every year. It just requires more creativity from everyone else. If Tampa can compete in the AL East, we can hang in the FBS.
 

AE 87

Helluva Engineer
Messages
13,026
Okay, we're getting somewhere. I'll try to answer y'all's questions, too.

You can't stipulate a non existent business market as the baseline. Saying that university sports is amateur is not circular but the fact. It boggles the mind that you don't understand this. Universities do not support athletic programs as a money making proposition. Most don't make money. They do it as part of a developed tradition of identity and rivalry. Having sports teams has become part of the college experience. So, the question you're asking is why am I against college amateur sports becoming professional. My answer is that I don't think that's their job.

You are correct that most athletic departments don't make money. The problem is that the football and men's basketball teams usually are profitable. The profits are drained paying for other line items in the departments' budgets. As for the experience issue, I would disagree, but even still it doesn't preclude paying players. It's a big deal at some schools, but a college experience at, say, Princeton is not less valuable because they don't play big time athletics. Lastly, if it isn't a job, can they be fired for not attending practice? If so, that sounds an awful lot like a job to me.

colleges and universities are, first and foremost, institutions of higher learning. Their purpose is to educate. The people who attend these institutions are students. Many, not all, of these institutions provide opportunities for these students to participate in extracurricular activies (in this case athletics). In addition to the collegiality and commraderie gained through these extracurricular activities, the institution gains brand recognition, which helps to promote enrollment. Since the competition is intercollegiate, there is incentive to perform well. So, the institutions provide "scholarship" opportunities to potential students that may enhance the performance of these teams who may or may not have the resources to attend said institute. This scholarship may be in the form of tuition waivers, room and board, entrance requirement waivers, etc. or any combination thereof. As a means of governance and to ensure fair play, the institutions participating intercollegially joined an association that has the ability to institute regulations to ensure the playing field is level for all the institutions. Collegiate athletics is defined as amateur sports, so there is no compensation for the the participants. Their scholarship may be contingient on their participation, but the student is not required to be on scholarship to participate.

The point is you keep saying that the universities have colluded to keep the athletes from taking advantage of a fair market and by setting what they're willing to "pay" the athletes. That's where we diverge. To me, the athletes are not being compensated for their participation in athletics. Fans use the "scholarship" and "education" as an answer to others when discussing compensation, but that's not the answer from the universities. Ask them and they'll say the student-athletes are not being compensated for their athletic ability. They're being afforded the opportunity to attend the institution and participate in the athletic endeavor by a fund generated by boosters of the institution.

I agree that the purpose, in general, is to educate. The issue I have is that, contrary to what you're saying, the athletes are specifically being "compensated" for their athletic participation, otherwise all students would have full ride scholarships. And if a university said they weren't, I'd have to work hard to contain my laugher. Why else would they recruit so hard? As for ensuring a fairer field of play, and this gets to ClydeBrick's point, if athletes are paid and Michigan or Texas or Bama have the advantage, how is that any different than what we have now? We all talk openly about the factory schools, because they get all the best players. Hell, over the past ten years, a grand total of 11 schools have played in the playoff/BCS title game (Texas, USC, Florida, Ohio State, LSU, Oklahoma, Alabama, Auburn, Oregon, Notre Dame, Florida State). It's the same schools every year. As long as the 25/85 rule is in place, nothing changes. Lastly, when I say that calling them amateurs is circular, this is what I mean - you said they can't be paid because they're amateurs, but they're amateurs because they aren't getting paid. Certainly, the coaches are making tons of money, the schools are raking in television money, and the players can be fired for poor performance. The only thing amateur about the entire enterprise is that the kids are not paid.

I think that everyone who has posted against paying players has an answer to this question. My answer is that paying players market-based wages destroys the ability for some level of parity to exist within collegiate competition. Do I think that the players deserve some level of compensation? Maybe, but as William Munny said, "deserve's got nothing to do with it". I would rather that the money generated from CFB be spent on lowering the cost for all students to attend college (opposed to collegiate sports increasing that cost) than it being spent on insane coaching salaries and facilities that the rank and file students never get to see much less take advantage of.

I guess you and I disagree. I don't see the current system as promoting parity at all. In football, it's the same 15-18 schools that compete at the top level every year. We can name them all - Ohio State, Michigan, Florida, Florida State, Alabama, Auburn, USC, Texas, Notre Dame, Georgia, LSU, etc. Same thing in hoops - it's Kansas, Carolina, Kentucky, Duke, UCLA, UConn, Michigan State, Indiana, etc. Even if a team rises up every now then - say Baylor or Butler or, hell, Georgia Tech - they can't sustain it. Allowing players to get paid might actually entice a player to come to a different school, like Tech. Maybe we take a swing at a 5'10" 190 pound kid who likes FSU and Bama as a corner, but can run like the wind and would look super sweet in a #5 jersey. Who knows. But paying players won't change the fact that certain schools will get the best players every year. It just requires more creativity from everyone else. If Tampa can compete in the AL East, we can hang in the FBS.

You didn't actually respond to my point but waved your hand at it. You stipulate major football and basketball programs as self-subsisting profit enterprises. They are not. They are part of a university intercollegiate athletic program. The income generated cannot be abstracted from generations of brand identity and loyalty tied to the academic institutions.

Again, universities are in the university business not professional sports business. The income generated by some sports offsets the costs of others as part of positioning the university in a particular market of universities.

Just because your point requires you to ignore certain facts doesn't make the facts disappear. Athletes must still go to class, and now, advance toward graduation. They are still students.
 

forensicbuzz

21st Century Throwback Dad
Messages
8,851
Location
North Shore, Chicago
I understand your point, I just don't agree that the players are being compensated. Call it naive, but these kids have to be students first. Granted, at some schools, they're barely students.

If we follow your model, then the football and basketball teams should be university-sponsored private athletic clubs that hire players to represent their club. They're affiliated with the university, but not made up of students from the university. That's what they do in Europe.

Like I said before, if we go to that system, I'm done with college football, and you can say good-bye to the rest of college athletics because there won't be funding for it.
 

JorgeJonas

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,147
You didn't actually respond to my point but waved your hand at it. You stipulate major football and basketball programs as self-subsisting profit enterprises. They are not. They are part of a university intercollegiate athletic program. The income generated cannot be abstracted from generations of brand identity and loyalty tied to the academic institutions.

Again, universities are in the university business not professional sports business. The income generated by some sports offsets the costs of others as part of positioning the university in a particular market of universities.

Just because your point requires you to ignore certain facts doesn't make the facts disappear. Athletes must still go to class, and now, advance toward graduation. They are still students.
I certainly didn't intend to bat away your point, so I apologize for my communication. The issue here is that the brand identity is irrelevant, and even if we can't extract it from the school, we can extract it from the player. I know this because Todd Guley got suspended for signing autographs for money and Georgia Tech had a conference title stripped because Demaryius Thomas took $312 in unused clothing. Clearly some players have a value greater than their scholarship, otherwise they would not have been offered these "benefits." The market dictates that their value is something more than tuition, room, and board. I am only advocating that they have they opportunity to realize what that value is. If you don't believe they should, that's cool. I'm only asking that you explain why (not that I think you owe me an answer, or anything else).
 

AE 87

Helluva Engineer
Messages
13,026
I certainly didn't intend to bat away your point, so I apologize for my communication. The issue here is that the brand identity is irrelevant, and even if we can't extract it from the school, we can extract it from the player. I know this because Todd Guley got suspended for signing autographs for money and Georgia Tech had a conference title stripped because Demaryius Thomas took $312 in unused clothing. Clearly some players have a value greater than their scholarship, otherwise they would not have been offered these "benefits." The market dictates that their value is something more than tuition, room, and board. I am only advocating that they have they opportunity to realize what that value is. If you don't believe they should, that's cool. I'm only asking that you explain why (not that I think you owe me an answer, or anything else).

Ok, I'll respond to this post and then stop. Either you have changed the topic from universities sponsoring a professional league to a new topic, or you are not actually conversing with me but asking me to address the same topic on the terms I've rejected.

If you changed topics, then you've not been paying attention since this question has been addressed. The NCAA sets guidelines for competitive reasons. I'm not against discussions of them but don't think the language of market value applies since it asserts a market which does not currently exist within the rules. Saying that some people can cheat is not an argument for cheating.
 

JorgeJonas

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,147
Ok, I'll respond to this post and then stop. Either you have changed the topic from universities sponsoring a professional league to a new topic, or you are not actually conversing with me but asking me to address the same topic on the terms I've rejected.

If you changed topics, then you've not been paying attention since this question has been addressed. The NCAA sets guidelines for competitive reasons. I'm not against discussions of them but don't think the language of market value applies since it asserts a market which does not currently exist within the rules. Saying that some people can cheat is not an argument for cheating.
Yeah, there's one of us who isn't paying attention, but it's not me. The rules are probably illegal; we'll know soon enough. They aren't there for competitive reasons, and if they are, they're failing miserably. If you're jealous or envious of athletes, that's a sad life, but if you're trying to protect them from themselves, that's even sadder. And if you're only concern is the performance of Georgia Tech football, then you're beyond repair. Good day.
 

awbuzz

Helluva Manager
Staff member
Messages
12,104
Location
Marietta, GA
All the while John and Jane Doe students get "athletic fee" increases to help pay for sports that they may or may not give a rat's rear end about... Pretty crappy to stick it to those having to foot that portion of mandatory fees.

Want to get paid more than a
scholly that covers tuition, fees and books along with with a food food (a meal plan or equal cash and add $100 in blow money, then join a semi pro or or professional team...
JMO
 

forensicbuzz

21st Century Throwback Dad
Messages
8,851
Location
North Shore, Chicago
I certainly didn't intend to bat away your point, so I apologize for my communication. The issue here is that the brand identity is irrelevant, and even if we can't extract it from the school, we can extract it from the player. I know this because Todd Guley got suspended for signing autographs for money and Georgia Tech had a conference title stripped because Demaryius Thomas took $312 in unused clothing. Clearly some players have a value greater than their scholarship, otherwise they would not have been offered these "benefits." The market dictates that their value is something more than tuition, room, and board. I am only advocating that they have they opportunity to realize what that value is. If you don't believe they should, that's cool. I'm only asking that you explain why (not that I think you owe me an answer, or anything else).
Just to make sure the points are clear, we didn't lose our ACC championship because of $312 of used clothing. We lost our championship because we were found to be obstructing an on-going NCAA investigation and were found to be uncooperative as an institution in that investigation. As it turns out, the $312 in used clothing was deemed "permissible" even though they were returned. I've already said there's bias and things wrong with the NCAA.
 

ClydeBrick

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
961
I guess you and I disagree. I don't see the current system as promoting parity at all. In football, it's the same 15-18 schools that compete at the top level every year. We can name them all - Ohio State, Michigan, Florida, Florida State, Alabama, Auburn, USC, Texas, Notre Dame, Georgia, LSU, etc. Same thing in hoops - it's Kansas, Carolina, Kentucky, Duke, UCLA, UConn, Michigan State, Indiana, etc. Even if a team rises up every now then - say Baylor or Butler or, hell, Georgia Tech - they can't sustain it. Allowing players to get paid might actually entice a player to come to a different school, like Tech. Maybe we take a swing at a 5'10" 190 pound kid who likes FSU and Bama as a corner, but can run like the wind and would look super sweet in a #5 jersey. Who knows. But paying players won't change the fact that certain schools will get the best players every year. It just requires more creativity from everyone else. If Tampa can compete in the AL East, we can hang in the FBS.

One thing is for certain, we definitely disagree.

Part of the reason that the same schools are "compet(ing) at the top level every year" in football is the fact that being at the top level is affected by opinions, not just on-field results. I agree that complete parity does not exist for many reasons, not the least of which is the financial resources a program has. A system that allows for unlimited money to be directly paid to the student-athlete logically favors programs with more money. There is not enough money to pay the new Cost Of Attendance stipends in the GTAA budget. How much money will the GTAA need to attract players to field a competitive team when the "market" determines what the players get paid?


The rules are probably illegal; we'll know soon enough.

Laws have granted professional sports leagues special status to operate in ways other business cannot due to the nature of their business so a precedent exists for granting a sports organization exceptions to laws. Hopefully the NCAA will prevail to keep this genie in the bottle.

BTW: If pay-for-play becomes "legal" then the courts should remove every privilege granted to every professional sports organization and rule that taxpayer supported facilities should be taxed as income for the teams that use them.



I have said this in other threads and this one. The current money generated by the revenue sports has been spent. Unless the court simultaneously strikes down Title IX while paving the way for pay-for-play, something will have to change to allow for the money to be available to pay players. Coaches will take have to take a cut, facilities will never be improved, students will be taxed more or fans will have to pay more for everything associated with collegiate sports. My guess is that it will really suck to be a poor student, a fan of collegiate sports or a subscriber to cable/dish TV.


I have appreciated the spirited debate on this issue and the fact that we have done a good job keeping it mostly based in facts and no one got overly emotional. I think that I will also step away from this thread now.

PS:
All the while John and Jane Doe students get "athletic fee" increases to help pay for sports that they may or may not give a rat's rear end about... Pretty crappy to stick it to those having to foot that portion of mandatory fees.
It isn't just the fees, for many students it's the interest on the loans too!
 

mmbt0ne

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
168
Some non-athletic scholarships have restrictions on them - you want free money to go to school, you do (or don't do) what the scholarship requires or you loose the scholarship.

If a non-athletic scholarship is provided directly by GT, the recipient generally works for GT in some fashion (like GTRI). If said student happens to invent a water-burning engine or cold-fusion, does the student reap the financial reward or GTRI?

Great question.

And GT actually has a great answer to it as well with VentureLab, which is an organization that helps professors and students commercialize research. A typical deal ends up with GT taking a 3-5% licensing fee on all revenue to cover the research developed but the students/professors own the business.

See here for more information on how it works and the 300+ companies they've helped start: http://venturelab.gatech.edu/
 

ptjackets

Georgia Tech Fan
Messages
42
Location
Lawrenceville Ga
here is the down side. Big programs such as alabama,Georgia, and others will have no problem paying players but what about programs like Georgia state? West Georgia? Mercer? Where is the money going to come from? Can you say increased student fees? Nothing in life is free someone is going to pay. Nobody forces these kids to play when I was a college student I would have paid to play. These large programs do make a lot of money but others don't there are more that don't than do
 

Animal02

Banned
Messages
6,269
Location
Southeastern Michigan
here is the down side. Big programs such as alabama,Georgia, and others will have no problem paying players but what about programs like Georgia state? West Georgia? Mercer? Where is the money going to come from? Can you say increased student fees? Nothing in life is free someone is going to pay. Nobody forces these kids to play when I was a college student I would have paid to play. These large programs do make a lot of money but others don't there are more that don't than do
University of Michigan athletic department lost 8 million dollars last year.
 

Skeptic

Helluva Engineer
Messages
6,372
Actually, it was firing a coach and athletic director and a huge drop in football ticket sales. It shows even the biggest programs are not always rolling in $$$$$.
For that reason alone Harbaugh might be a good hire. We can assume, I guess, that for this season anyway when they list 95,000 in attendance, all wil be full price tickets rather than those 10 for a dollar deals they were hawking last year. Even harsh discounts couldn't fill the joint.
 
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