A Thread to Rehash GT HC Comparisons

Vespidae

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Here's another. Tech won the Coastal in 2008 (tie), 2009, 2012, and 2014. We were second or tied for second in 2018, 2013, and 2011. Sooooo … for 7 of his 10 years at Tech Paul's teams either won the Coastal outright (4 times) or placed second (3 times). Makes things look a bit different, doesn't it? In those 7 years the Coastal was always contested between VT and Tech. It got sorta boring, actually.

Winning percentages don't tell you everything. And, btw, yours is wrong because you included 2019. Using 2011 - 2018 (you know, when Paul was coaching) Tech's winning percentage was 55%. Not fantastic, but not bad.

If Collins can get to these kinds of results (especially something like 2014), I'll be happy enough. But others here? Well …

My comment wasn't directed at Paul. It was simply looking at Tech in general. To be fair, doing the same analysis by decade would probably be the most objective.

The years you mentioned are interesting though. Here's the summary:

1603750405376.png


Granted, 2009 looks like a great year. But 2012? Highlighting that when the conference didn't even crack 0.500 is a bit of a stretch. Basically, nobody was very good.

As to wpt's not being very revealing. I disagree. It gives a good idea of the consistency of the program.
 

jgtengineer

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My comment wasn't directed at Paul. It was simply looking at Tech in general. To be fair, doing the same analysis by decade would probably be the most objective.

The years you mentioned are interesting though. Here's the summary:

View attachment 9382

Granted, 2009 looks like a great year. But 2012? Highlighting that when the conference didn't even crack 0.500 is a bit of a stretch. Basically, nobody was very good.

As to wpt's not being very revealing. I disagree. It gives a good idea of the consistency of the program.

I'd actually argue that in 2012 we had perhaps the most parity ever seen in a conference division. The only team that didn't end 500 before a bowl game was UVA. Now granted a lot of them lost their bowls we took the conference champions down to the wire and won our bowl.
 

A Love Supreme

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Im pretty sure Paul Johnson was a bonafide proven winning head coach before he came to Tech. What did Collins win as a head coach before he got here? A think hiring Collins was a big gamble.
 

Gtswifty81

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I really don't get what makes you guys think the option wasn't working. In it's last season at Georgia Tech, the team scored 63 points, 66 points, 49 points, 38 points, 41 points, 30 points... In half the games played it averaged 48 points per game. In the other half, it averaged 17 points per game. And in my opinion, things were only going to get better the next season. I am sorry, but you can't average damn near 50 points a game in half your games and make some claim that the offense doesn't work.

And look at Army THIS YEAR.... under Monken. They play mostly bad teams, but you have to remember, Army is probably the hardest job in college football. Even when Army plays a low-level school, they are at a talent disadvantage. 42, 37, 55, 28, 49, 10, and 14... Averaging 34 per game. Sure, they lost to Cincy by 14 points. Cincy is a top 10 football team. Also, Army is on its 4th string QB.. The defensive coordinator who is doing a great job at Army this year, WAS GEORGIA TECHS COORDINATOR! Would still be if they hired Monken.

In the original post I mentioned the depth chart that was coming... Do any of you guys have any doubt that Tobias Oliver would have been a 1,500 yard QB? He had nearly 900 yards and 12 touchdowns as a backup.

The other point I will make is regarding recruiting... Recruiting was fine. In his last 3 classes he signed:

Parker Braun, Kenny Cooper, Jahaziel Lee, Jalen Camp, Steve Dolphus, Dedrick Mills, Kaleb Oliver, Tariq Carpenter, Jordan Mason, Jerry Howard, Tre Swilling, Bruce-Jordan Swilling, Connor Hansen, Pressley Harvin, Adonicas Sanders, Juanyeh Thomas, Charlie Thomas, Zach Quinney, Wesley Wells, Tobias Oliver, etc.

Juanyeh Thomas was a freshman all-american... Parker Braun was an All-American... Pressley Harvin has been All-ACC multiple times... Tobias Oliver was going to be a 3 year starter at QB... They had plenty of AB's and BB's... Receivers were really good for our system.

In the 3-4 alignment that Nate Woody had in 2018 the linebackers were:

Charlie Thomas (freshman)
Quez Jackson (freshman)
David Curry (junior)
Tariq Carpenter (sophomore)

The corners were both Freshman as well (Tre Swilling)

That was a REALLY young defensive team that they could build and improve on... and they were 33rd in total defense nationally. Does anyone honestly believe they would drop to depths of college football just 1 and 2 years later?

This years team is 85th in total defense. The 2019 defense was the 2nd worst in the ACC, and had a really crap national ranking as well.
I went to look up the 2018 defense stats and each site is all over the board. NCAA had us 33rd in yards but they had tech only playing 11 games. Another site had us 79th in points and 46th in yards with the correct 13 games. Another site had us 85th in points and 52nd in yards. I always felt the TO did a good job of protecting our defense by limiting possessions. I don’t think we were truly the 33rd best D that year. The points per game I found point to a fairly ineffective D then as well but we are definitely a struggling D this year.
 

THWG16

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Great post. Just excellent. I do believe that someone like Monken, knowing that he was going to have to be a better marketeer and ambassador for the program to improve recruiting somewhat, could have done what you say. Unfortunately, a huge swath of our fans hate the option offense and really believe we can get a coach that runs a standard O, but recruits better, who is able to win conference championships or more.
Monken’s team is ranked 33rd in country now & we’re probably 83rd
 

lv20gt

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In CPJ's last year, when we lost to Dook, I'm talking bout Dook (Allen Iverson's voice), we had 5 or 6 4th down & 1 yd to go and Dook stopped us on all of them

I don't have enough interest in going back and watching a game from that long ago but according to espn play by play that isn't true. We converted about 5 or 6 3rd/4th and 2 or less to go that game. We were stopped a couple of times as well but it wasn't on all of them.
 

THWG16

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I think we are probably going to get wheels blown off by ND at this point. They are significantly better than us. However, our next 4 opponents after them are not. Not saying we should win all 4, but we should be able to compete. I’m much more interested in seeing how we finish out this season against those last 4 than how we play against ND. If we can be competitive in those last 4 games, regardless of outcome, Ill feel a lot better heading into next season.
BC isn’t a good team
 

THWG16

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re GT, no legitimate coach wanted to come in and have to deal with the retooling of the team from the TO to a more typical system. I think Geoff will do it, but I also think his ceiling is 7-8 wins a year. He'll lose to Clemson and UGA every year and probably 2-3 others.

That said, I think he will get talent coming to GT. I also think it's the next coach who will benefit the most. The biggest fear for Geoff I have is that he turns off the fanbase, particularly those who buy season tix. I know we are not the audience for his schtick, but ... they do contribute the money and in the end, money matters.
I think scott satterfield or neal brown would’ve came here
 

CuseJacket

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Good post, and thought provoking!

I'll give my thoughts, but you know my biases, and are free to grade on a curve, so to speak :)

1) I'm going to do something cruddy and re-challenge your challenge. Paul Johnson is, in my mind, not the be-all and end-all as a head coach. I DO think he might be the be-all and end-all as an offensive coordinator, though, but his failure to ever get an above average defense at Georgia Tech is his failure. The notion that the two are anything other than VERY tangentially connected I think is a falsehood. I fail to see a reason that Paul Johnson couldn't have an ounce more charisma, and hired Nate Woody 4 years earlier, and not had 1 standard deviation better defenses. That offense is going to hold down OFFENSIVE recruiting, and yeah there is maybe a SMALL degree of collateral damage from coaches saying "you don't want to practice against that, you'll get your knees hurt and it won't prepare you for the NFL", but a good recruiter/defensive coordinator tells prospects "you're going to be playing against the scout offense, and you're always going to be playing from ahead, which means lots of INT's".

Now, obviously that speaks to point 2 of your post, which is "why not have it all?"

Well, to my mind, you HAVE proven that you could succeed with the first model, and you HAVE NOT proven that you could succeed with the second model.

In the modern era, you have proven that you can have consistently excellent offense, and consistently "good enough" defense, you just haven't had them at the same time. You had "good enough" defense under Gaily, and you had excellent offense under Johnson. Now, maybe Paul Johnson himself wasn't the guy to recruit/coach a good enough defense to be "good enough", but there's no reason Jeff Monken, for example, could not be.

It was ALWAYS weird to me that Johnson hired "bend but don't break" defensive coaches, given that in my mind a high risk/high reward defense is a much better fit with Johnson's offense. I thought Woody was a GREAT hire for that reason, and I thought they were going to do really good things together at GT.

Well, I was right..... sort of. He's gotten together with Monken at Army, and those guys are a handful, despite having the worst football talent in America.

So, you've proven all the pieces can work at GT, you just never had them at the same time consistently enough.

What you have NOT proven is that you can consistently recruit and retain top 20 recruiting classes at GT.

Remember, when you're running the same schemes everybody else is (and I assure you, GT is. Their offensive schemes are just ABSOLUTELY bog-standard modern spread offense), you fail or succeed on A) teaching ability and B) recruiting (and really, more on recruiting). If you get top 35 classes, you're going to get top 35 results.

If top 35 results are good enough for you, then top 35 recruiting classes are good enough.

I assume you want top 20 results, which means top 20 recruiting classes, and (per 247) since the year 2000 (which is a relatively arbitrary measure, I admit, but it captures the sort of "modern era" of recruiting, with kids beings scouted since they were freshmen and the internet and all that jazz) you have had top 20 recruiting classes in:

2000 (number 19)
2007 (15)
...and that's it.

Now, that 2007 class came with Collins as head of recruiting, but he's had 2 classes as head coach so far, and they've been numbers 27 and 39.

The question this begs is: Is Collins a GREAT recruiter or just a competent one?

If Collins is a GREAT recruiter, then you're in trouble, because the number of people who are GREAT recruiters AND above average x's and o's guys is relatively slim, and they usually coach at places like Georgia, not places like Georgia Tech. If Collins is a GREAT recruiter, and what he can get at GT is top 35 classes, then it's really NOT a sustainable model, because there are relatively few GREAT recruiters, and your next coach isn't likely to be one, because there's no moneyball inefficiency there. Everybody wants a great recruiter, so they're really hard to come by, and the ones you can get are just statistically unlikely to be great x's and o's guys, too.

There IS a moneyball inefficiency with guys like Monken, because of the "undesirability" of the system. You can get better x's and o's results than your "expected value" at your school.

If Collins is just a competent recruiter, though, then maybe you're cooking something there, bbecause you ought to be able to find a competent recruiter who is a good x' and o's guy. If GT really CAN compete heads up with the rest of the ACC in recruiting, and doesn't require EXCEPTIONAL recruiting talent to achieve "slightly above average" recruiting results (which is what you're getting now), then good.

I'm just saying one model has been PROVEN at GT (in separate pieces) and the other has not. That said, Flight was always possible, we just didn't know it until the wright brothers came along. So maybe Orville Collins will be remembered similarly.

JJesus, sorry for the rambling, war and piece length answer, but it's sunday and I'm puttering around the house sore from doing yard work yesterday and I came back to this like 4 times, haha :)
I greatly enjoyed reading your reply and meant to get to you back sooner, but time has been fleeting these days. For that reason, please don't take this reply as dismissive. Just a truncated version of the core thoughts that came to mind.

Your breakdown of GT's upside is interesting as are the hypotheticals around CPJ's DC timing and what could have been. Two questions:
  1. Do you think it's fair to suggest that Gailey was equally held back by his OC, therefore meaning GT's potential was never reached during his tenure?
  2. After reaching the ACCCG in 2006, to your point Gailey brought in arguably the greatest single year infusion of talent in history of recruiting rankings in 2007. He never got to see that class through. Would it be logical to assume he'd have had a pretty good chance to make the ACCCG again?
No way to know the answers, but I'm curious if you believe there's equal credence to this counterargument. This is all hypothetical and both rebuts + supports many of your points.
 

slugboy

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I think scott satterfield or neal brown would’ve came here
If I recall correctly, Paul Johnson had already announced his upcoming retirement before Satterfield accepted the Louisville job. Maybe he would have accepted it—I think he would have if there weren’t other jobs available—but he was off the board before we could even ask.
Maybe Neal Brown, though.
 

JacketOff

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I think scott satterfield or neal brown would’ve came here
The same Scott Satterfield that’s sitting at 2-4 with a 19 point loss to “clown, hype man, car salesman, bad coach” Geoff Collins in year 2?

And the same Neal Brown that’s beaten 1 FBS team with a winning record? Of his 8 wins 2 of them are Kansas, 2 are FCS teams, 1 is the same NC State team that “clown, bad coach, dummy, 404 error code, Butch Jones 2.0” Geoff Collins beat.

One of those 2 guys who took over programs with objectively better talent without the obstacle of completely transitioning the offense? One of those 2 guys whose programs are either on the same level as GT currently, or marginally better? One of which has literally lost to Geoff Collins? Interesting choices
 

year_of_the_swarm

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OK, you have made a compelling case. Let's agree that it was working. What do you want us to do with data? Switch back to that system? Bring in a coach who runs that system. While I appreciate what you have done and love the articulation and enthusiasm, it it looking in the rearview mirror. At this point, so what if it was the best offense in the entire nation? Maybe it's just fun to discuss??

A valid question. The answer depends on what you think the Georgia Tech program is. And I think a lot of programs need to ask themselves this same question.

Is Georgia Tech a program that can have sustained success doing what everyone else is doing? Or is Georgia Tech a program that, for a variety of reasons, needs to do something drastically different than the herd to have an edge. In my opinion, Georgia Tech is the latter. Or, maybe they need to have an elite coach to imitate the herd. Not sure anyone would consider Geoff Collins an elite coach. An article came out in March ranking the ACC head coaches. They had Geoff Collins next to last, right above Jeff Hafley from Boston College because Hafley had never been a head coach before. He had a 0-0 record. Well, he's 4-2 right now in their first year with a brand new staff.

Whether or not the school decides to go back to a unique scheme (by hiring the coach from Army or Navy) really depends on what happens in the next two years. There probably isn't another win on schedule this year, maybe one more when they play Duke, which means a 2-9 or 3-8 season. Last year was a 3-9 season.... Things will really start to heat up if they don't win 6 games the next year. I think that's the number he needs to hit.

The roster is really young... Lots of freshman in the two deep. Including at critical positions... We will see what happens next year. Again, I think the number is 6 wins. Anything less and that seat starts to heat up. Puts a lot of pressure on the next season. But I could see people calling for Monken if the next 2 years go poorly. Maybe that won't happen... if they start winning, the thought will fade away.
 

smokey_wasp

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A valid question. The answer depends on what you think the Georgia Tech program is. And I think a lot of programs need to ask themselves this same question.

Is Georgia Tech a program that can have sustained success doing what everyone else is doing? Or is Georgia Tech a program that, for a variety of reasons, needs to do something drastically different than the herd to have an edge. In my opinion, Georgia Tech is the latter. Or, maybe they need to have an elite coach to imitate the herd. Not sure anyone would consider Geoff Collins an elite coach. An article came out in March ranking the ACC head coaches. They had Geoff Collins next to last, right above Jeff Hafley from Boston College because Hafley had never been a head coach before. He had a 0-0 record. Well, he's 4-2 right now in their first year with a brand new staff.

Whether or not the school decides to go back to a unique scheme (by hiring the coach from Army or Navy) really depends on what happens in the next two years. There probably isn't another win on schedule this year, maybe one more when they play Duke, which means a 2-9 or 3-8 season. Last year was a 3-9 season.... Things will really start to heat up if they don't win 6 games the next year. I think that's the number he needs to hit.

The roster is really young... Lots of freshman in the two deep. Including at critical positions... We will see what happens next year. Again, I think the number is 6 wins. Anything less and that seat starts to heat up. Puts a lot of pressure on the next season. But I could see people calling for Monken if the next 2 years go poorly. Maybe that won't happen... if they start winning, the thought will fade away.

Just don't see it happening. No power 5 is going to go flexbone now with free one-time transfers in place. If the current rules were in place in 2008, the ACC title never happens because you would have seen a mass exodus of talent.

If we run a "unique" scheme in the future, it will be more passing based. You could go in the direction of a Gus offense or a Leach one, but service academy ball is not coming back, man.
 

smokey_wasp

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The same Scott Satterfield that’s sitting at 2-4 with a 19 point loss to “clown, hype man, car salesman, bad coach” Geoff Collins in year 2?

And the same Neal Brown that’s beaten 1 FBS team with a winning record? Of his 8 wins 2 of them are Kansas, 2 are FCS teams, 1 is the same NC State team that “clown, bad coach, dummy, 404 error code, Butch Jones 2.0” Geoff Collins beat.

One of those 2 guys who took over programs with objectively better talent without the obstacle of completely transitioning the offense? One of those 2 guys whose programs are either on the same level as GT currently, or marginally better? One of which has literally lost to Geoff Collins? Interesting choices

According to Dan Wolken, we talked to Mike Norvell and Seth Littrell. Really can't say anyone we looked at or had a realistic shot at is clearly better than Collins. I wonder how much the Collins hate has to do with the fact that he didn't "kiss the ring" enough on his way in.
 

AlabamaBuzz

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Monken’s team is ranked 33rd in country now & we’re probably 83rd

According to Dan Wolken, we talked to Mike Norvell and Seth Littrell. Really can't say anyone we looked at or had a realistic shot at is clearly better than Collins. I wonder how much the Collins hate has to do with the fact that he didn't "kiss the ring" enough on his way in.

Well, I don't "hate" anyone. I wish only the best for my HC. But, if you want to know why many of us are concerned, it was his "salesman" personality without any real HC proven success yet. (2 years at Temple inheriting a 10 win team was not yet "proven success"). And, so far, I haven't seen a lot that would make me believe differently about his prospects.

I sure hope that no one has bad feelings about whether he "kissed the ring", cause I sure don't. I don't think he was disrespectful of CPJ at all. He did say he was changing everything, but that is what he told Todd, and that must be what Todd wanted.
 

smokey_wasp

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Well, I don't "hate" anyone. I wish only the best for my HC. But, if you want to know why many of us are concerned, it was his "salesman" personality without any real HC proven success yet. (2 years at Temple inheriting a 10 win team was not yet "proven success"). And, so far, I haven't seen a lot that would make me believe differently about his prospects.

I sure hope that no one has bad feelings about whether he "kissed the ring", cause I sure don't. I don't think he was disrespectful of CPJ at all. He did say he was changing everything, but that is what he told Todd, and that must be what Todd wanted.

I think bringing in the most talented player on the flats since Calvin Johnson, beating out Florida for him straight up, along with a borderline top 25 recruiting class, is exactly what he promised and set out to do. In the event that he doesn't start winning, he will at the very least make this an attractive job for somebody with the type of coaching record you are looking for.
 

4shotB

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Well, I don't "hate" anyone. I wish only the best for my HC. But, if you want to know why many of us are concerned, it was his "salesman" personality without any real HC proven success yet. (2 years at Temple inheriting a 10 win team was not yet "proven success"). And, so far, I haven't seen a lot that would make me believe differently about his prospects.
I don't know what the future holds but we went this route before at GT. With a guy named Bobby Cremins. It worked out very well and at the time he took the job, it was probably the worst HC job in the country. I agree with the premise that this is easier to accomplish in BB because getting 2 -3 top notch players, especially at PG, pays immediate dividends. Football takes many more pieces.

Look, the way things were and are in our program, we were going to have to take a risk to get someone. I am still willing to be patient although there are things that do concern me. Really, what other rational choice do I or any of us have?
 

AlabamaBuzz

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I think bringing in the most talented player on the flats since Calvin Johnson, beating out Florida for him straight up, along with a borderline top 25 recruiting class, is exactly what he promised and set out to do. In the event that he doesn't start winning, he will at the very least make this an attractive job for somebody with the type of coaching record you are looking for.

I respect your opinion, Smoke. I just don't think recruiting rankings are going to be the key to success at GT. I do agree though that if we are going to be somewhat "vanilla" in our approach to game day play calling and strategy, we sure won't do well without some excellent recruiting. We have seen this before, and I guess a lot of people will be happy if we are able to beat Duke consistently.
 

AlabamaBuzz

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I don't know what the future holds but we went this route before at GT. With a guy named Bobby Cremins. It worked out very well and at the time he took the job, it was probably the worst HC job in the country. I agree with the premise that this is easier to accomplish in BB because getting 2 -3 top notch players, especially at PG, pays immediate dividends. Football takes many more pieces.

Look, the way things were and are in our program, we were going to have to take a risk to get someone. I am still willing to be patient although there are things that do concern me. Really, what other rational choice do I or any of us have?

Yeah, I was on campus when we brought Bobby in, and I could see he had something that would attract kids, especially kids from the NE, but who would have thunk he would get a 6' kid out of Enid, OK that would revolutionize our program? Yeah, I don't think we can recruit our way to where we want to be in football, but I am hoping to be wrong. I still think the formula looks like this:

Recruiting + Development of the <4star players + Superior gameday coaching = Program success (of course, this is just W's - success will also be measured with kids graduating and staying out of trouble)

I have real concerns with those 2nd two shown in the formula. Hoping CGC proves this concern to be unfounded.

I guess a lot of you just wish we would "shut up" about our concerns. That is funny, because that ain't happening with GT fans/alums.
 
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