2020 Team Talent Composite

1979jacket

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This is interesting - It's like a lot of stats - it can be criticized. But if you look a the correlations in total it works. The top ranked teams are at the top of the list. UGA has the most talent in the country yet hasn't been able to win one. I believe that is right and it says something as well.
 

Heisman's Ghost

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I think it's worth bumping this thread, given the arguments around overall roster talent and expected results.

There is a lot of emotion around X's and O's vs. Jimmys and Joes after losses to UCF and Syracuse. Some warranted, some not, in my opinion.

Summarizing my position from two posts up:
  • Yes, we have a lot more raw talent this year
  • No, we should not expect it to be effective this year
  • There are positional variances that are more important and material to W and L any given year i.e., talent on the OL and DL
There is some "conflating" going around that expects a year 1 talent increase to equal year 1 results. That is not how this works at any school, with any coach. Experience and S&C is required outside of surefire 5*, of which we have zero per the 247 composite. This means you'll typically reap the benefits 2-3 years down the road, and I see no reason to believe that GT will be the exception.

In another post referenced I made prior to game 1 here: https://gtswarm.com/threads/acc-discussion-2020.22036/post-740493

And our 2020 class is considered 2nd best in the recruiting ranking era behind the 2007 group.

Of our top 20 players listed above, how many should realistically be making a material impact 3 games into the 2020 season, accounting for age and injuries? My expectation was and continues to be maybe 2 or 3 at best. I'd be interested in hearing other perspectives on this, particularly where others disagree.
I don't disagree but we very nearly had a team in Cincy whose TOP ranked recruiting class the past four years was 41st, beat the perennial February recruiting national champion UGA dwags. Talent alone will not get it done. Get the talent and then the hard work begins. The problem we have is similar to that facing the vast majority of the bottom feeders. Not enough linemen especially defensive tackles and offensive tackles. They are in short supply and seemingly all of the best go to the top 10 factories. IIWII
 

Augusta_Jacket

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I don't disagree but we very nearly had a team in Cincy whose TOP ranked recruiting class the past four years was 41st, beat the perennial February recruiting national champion UGA dwags. Talent alone will not get it done. Get the talent and then the hard work begins. The problem we have is similar to that facing the vast majority of the bottom feeders. Not enough linemen especially defensive tackles and offensive tackles. They are in short supply and seemingly all of the best go to the top 10 factories. IIWII

uga had several top players opt out of the bowl game (10 or more IIRC), and UC's RB was a Bama transfer, which doesn't show in the recruiting rankings.
 

Heisman's Ghost

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uga had several top players opt out of the bowl game (10 or more IIRC), and UC's RB was a Bama transfer, which doesn't show in the recruiting rankings.
Their replacements were ranked far higher than anyone UC has. They had two rankings recently in the 60s, I think. Point is no one excels at wasting talent like UGA...no one.
 

Augusta_Jacket

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Their replacements were ranked far higher than anyone UC has. They had two rankings recently in the 60s, I think. Point is no one excels at wasting talent like UGA...no one.

True, but their replacements also have less experience. It was no shock that a good Cincy team could almost beat a depleted uga team.

In reality, they are ranked 59th with 7 4 stars vs us at 34th with 13 4 stars. There's only a 78 point delta in the rankings, and I would hope that we could keep up with a depleted uga team. (hope, not expect at this point) There is a larger difference in points between us and #21 USC(e) than between Cincy and us.

As far as uga wasting talent, while I tend to agree with you, it's really only wasted if you are expecting them to win NC's. I mean, I am pretty sure we'd kill to be in uga's position right now...
 

forensicbuzz

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True, but their replacements also have less experience. It was no shock that a good Cincy team could almost beat a depleted uga team.

In reality, they are ranked 59th with 7 4 stars vs us at 34th with 13 4 stars. There's only a 78 point delta in the rankings, and I would hope that we could keep up with a depleted uga team. (hope, not expect at this point) There is a larger difference in points between us and #21 USC(e) than between Cincy and us.

As far as uga wasting talent, while I tend to agree with you, it's really only wasted if you are expecting them to win NC's. I mean, I am pretty sure we'd kill to be in uga's position right now...
Please stop apologizing for uga's pisspoor performance.
 

Augusta_Jacket

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Please stop apologizing for uga's pisspoor performance.

That's rich. While I actively pull against uga in everything, tell me you wouldn't want to be in their position regarding win totals over the last decade? It's entirely possible to have honest intellectual debate on a subject if you take your homer glasses off. They are exactly where we are trying to get to: lots of talent and every year in the discussion for titles. The whole squandered talent insult makes us look pretty petty when sitting on 6 wins over two seasons.
 

forensicbuzz

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That's rich. While I actively pull against uga in everything, tell me you wouldn't want to be in their position regarding win totals over the last decade? It's entirely possible to have honest intellectual debate on a subject if you take your homer glasses off. They are exactly where we are trying to get to: lots of talent and every year in the discussion for titles. The whole squandered talent insult makes us look pretty petty when sitting on 6 wins over two seasons.
My comment was only related to your first sentence.
 

Heisman's Ghost

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Pretty obvious that TV is more important than the fans and yes the state government dictated the number of fans that could attend games.
Pretty obvious that a team that has won 6 games in the past two years is going to have a hard time getting fans to go to games. Coach Collins had best start winning some more ball games or it will not matter what the damn state governments do or how much TV money is shoveled into the fire.
 

Heisman's Ghost

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You don't really think I believe this do you? It would serve the gods of football right but it is not going to happen. Fans will flock back like they always do...at least most of them. My Florida friends tell me that tickets at Ben Hill Griffin would have been pretty easy to come by had there not been COVID due to a number of factors including disenchantment with Mullins, underachieving talent (except as it turns out shoe tossing), and general malaise. We will see.
 

Heisman's Ghost

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That's rich. While I actively pull against uga in everything, tell me you wouldn't want to be in their position regarding win totals over the last decade? It's entirely possible to have honest intellectual debate on a subject if you take your homer glasses off. They are exactly where we are trying to get to: lots of talent and every year in the discussion for titles. The whole squandered talent insult makes us look pretty petty when sitting on 6 wins over two seasons.
It would be nice but that would entail repeated top ten recruiting classes, a supine administration, major attention to identifying every aspect of the program that needs improvement and throwing money at it until it is fixed, boatloads of money to pay players, pay for outrageous locker rooms, weight rooms, and various other eye candy. I can't see that happening at Tech or at 100 other college football programs. UGA is top shelf football factory now and nothing will stop it for foreseeable future.
 

1979jacket

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That's rich. While I actively pull against uga in everything, tell me you wouldn't want to be in their position regarding win totals over the last decade? It's entirely possible to have honest intellectual debate on a subject if you take your homer glasses off. They are exactly where we are trying to get to: lots of talent and every year in the discussion for titles. The whole squandered talent insult makes us look pretty petty when sitting on 6 wins over two seasons.it is not t.
I guess I look at things differently than u do. I accept reality that GT being in the top 5 in recruiting every year is not a realistic goal for GT. Accept reality. Is 6 wins over 2 years acceptable ?- heck no. Is Uga regularly finishing outside the CFB acceptable? - shouldn't be. Reailistically, GT should be able to win enough for bowl games with an occasional exceptional year above that. UGA should be in the CFP picture almost every year and make CFP regularly. Has UGA done that? No - Has GT fallen back such that not a bowl team anymore? Yes Both GT and UGA need to improve. But expecting GT to be on a level of UGA year in and year out is a pipe dream and unrealistic for many reasons, Money being the biggest reason .
 
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It would be nice but that would entail repeated top ten recruiting classes, a supine administration, major attention to identifying every aspect of the program that needs improvement and throwing money at it until it is fixed, boatloads of money to pay players, pay for outrageous locker rooms, weight rooms, and various other eye candy. I can't see that happening at Tech or at 100 other college football programs. UGA is top shelf football factory now and nothing will stop it for foreseeable future.
And........?

So what if UGA is a "FB Factory" that just so happens to be located on the same Campus as a Flagship State University, being a Factory hasn't interrupted the Academic Mission of the UGA in any way

The Academic Mission of UGA seems to be in good hands, a University that was once ranked in the low 100s when I graduated from HS is now ranked in the Top50, a steady ascent in those Academic Rankings that us GT Alums love so much


If you look closely at those rankings GT is #35 and UGA is #47, also pay attention to UNC at #28 ( I guess to the Professionals that rank these Colleges a few students taking easy FREE ELECTIVES in African American Studies means less than nothing, it only seems important to our jaded Fans)

For those that want to take cheap shots at UGA when Kirby goes to Recruit kids at Elite Private HSs in this State he can pull out those Rankings and say, "out of about 400 nationally ranked Universities GT is only 12 spots ahead of us, when you take out the Engr Majors we're basically dead-even with GT, then you add in that we put more guys in the NFL, that means you can get the same non- Engr Academic opportunities at UGA combined with a better shot at the NFL while playing on the biggest stage in CFB the esss eeeee ceee"

For all you sour grapes, UGA is perpetually garbage, type of GT Fans, that paragraph above is what we are facing on the Recruiting Trail with in State Recruits

No one cares about 40 year decisions anymore, please leave the 50s & 60s and join us here in 2021

P5 CFB is a "dual-Path opportunity", there's the VOCATIONAL PATH aka, The NFL and the Academic Path, aka your College Degree

The Players we need to start Recruiting are those that really care about the Vocational Path (FB #1) with the understanding that the Academic Path is "#1a", that system of prioritizing will allow a Player to graduate with a great Education while being highly focused on FB & making the NFL and playing at a high level while at GT

IMHO GT's main mistake has been the Marketing of this "think about the 40 year plan crap" as their main Recruiting Pitch, that has allowed too many lowly Talented Players onto GT's FB & MBB Roster, although that sort of Recruiting Pitch makes the old fart Alums boast with pride, it does nothing for putting Talent on our Depth Chart that can also Graduate from GT one day

At some point GT fans need to realize that there in nothing wrong with being a FB Factory, winning FB has no impact on the Academics of your University, in fact pesky NCAA Investigations hasn't meant one thing in Chapel Hill based on their glowing Nat'l Reputation - ranked #28

I find it beyond amazing that so many GT Alums are so savvy in so many different industries, yet cannot or won't apply that savviness & smarts to the GTAA and our FB Program, for some reason our Athl Dept and our Fanbase has the least understanding of what it takes to win big in CFB despite a ton of Elite Talent within a short drive of our Campus

I have this gut feeling that if ND were physically located where GT is now, (in Midtown Atl) they would have won every BCS Title and every CFPlayoff Championship
 

JacketOff

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And........?

So what if UGA is a "FB Factory" that just so happens to be located on the same Campus as a Flagship State University, being a Factory hasn't interrupted the Academic Mission of the UGA in any way

The Academic Mission of UGA seems to be in good hands, a University that was once ranked in the low 100s when I graduated from HS is now ranked in the Top50, a steady ascent in those Academic Rankings that us GT Alums love so much


If you look closely at those rankings GT is #35 and UGA is #47, also pay attention to UNC at #28 ( I guess to the Professionals that rank these Colleges a few students taking easy FREE ELECTIVES in African American Studies means less than nothing, it only seems important to our jaded Fans)

For those that want to take cheap shots at UGA when Kirby goes to Recruit kids at Elite Private HSs in this State he can pull out those Rankings and say, "out of about 400 nationally ranked Universities GT is only 12 spots ahead of us, when you take out the Engr Majors we're basically dead-even with GT, then you add in that we put more guys in the NFL, that means you can get the same non- Engr Academic opportunities at UGA combined with a better shot at the NFL while playing on the biggest stage in CFB the esss eeeee ceee"

For all you sour grapes, UGA is perpetually garbage, type of GT Fans, that paragraph above is what we are facing on the Recruiting Trail with in State Recruits

No one cares about 40 year decisions anymore, please leave the 50s & 60s and join us here in 2021

P5 CFB is a "dual-Path opportunity", there's the VOCATIONAL PATH aka, The NFL and the Academic Path, aka your College Degree

The Players we need to start Recruiting are those that really care about the Vocational Path (FB #1) with the understanding that the Academic Path is "#1a", that system of prioritizing will allow a Player to graduate with a great Education while being highly focused on FB & making the NFL and playing at a high level while at GT

IMHO GT's main mistake has been the Marketing of this "think about the 40 year plan crap" as their main Recruiting Pitch, that has allowed too many lowly Talented Players onto GT's FB & MBB Roster, although that sort of Recruiting Pitch makes the old fart Alums boast with pride, it does nothing for putting Talent on our Depth Chart that can also Graduate from GT one day

At some point GT fans need to realize that there in nothing wrong with being a FB Factory, winning FB has no impact on the Academics of your University, in fact pesky NCAA Investigations hasn't meant one thing in Chapel Hill based on their glowing Nat'l Reputation - ranked #28

I find it beyond amazing that so many GT Alums are so savvy in so many different industries, yet cannot or won't apply that savviness & smarts to the GTAA and our FB Program, for some reason our Athl Dept and our Fanbase has the least understanding of what it takes to win big in CFB despite a ton of Elite Talent within a short drive of our Campus

I have this gut feeling that if ND were physically located where GT is now, (in Midtown Atl) they would have won every BCS Title and every CFPlayoff Championship
I honestly have no idea what point(s) you’re trying to convey here. But I can tell you that GT’s status outside the stratosphere of “football factories” is much more closely related to our small enrollment numbers, the large number of foreign and out-of-state students, the narrow breadth of majors offered, and general lack of financial backing than it is anything you said.

What the fanbase does and doesn’t understand about recruiting or winning is irrelevant, simply because fans aren’t the ones making decisions that affect recruiting or winning. What you want would require extreme coordination and cooperation between GT FB, the GTAA, The Hill, and most importantly the state BOR. And it would require huge amounts of money that history has shown is unattainable for the GTAA. And even if it were attainable, it would require amounts of money that would make existing factories jealous, which is completely unreasonable to expect.
 
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I honestly have no idea what point(s) you’re trying to convey here. But I can tell you that GT’s status outside the stratosphere of “football factories” is much more closely related to our small enrollment numbers, the large number of foreign and out-of-state students, the narrow breadth of majors offered, and general lack of financial backing than it is anything you said.

What the fanbase does and doesn’t understand about recruiting or winning is irrelevant, simply because fans aren’t the ones making decisions that affect recruiting or winning. What you want would require extreme coordination and cooperation between GT FB, the GTAA, The Hill, and most importantly the state BOR. And it would require huge amounts of money that history has shown is unattainable for the GTAA. And even if it were attainable, it would require amounts of money that would make existing factories jealous, which is completely unreasonable to expect.

Small enrollment doesn't impact ND, BTW

in the Deep South , especially Metro Atlanta, there are people that love CFB all around, they just don't love GT's brand of CFB, mainly due to our smug elitist Fanbase that looks down their noses at others for some reason or another

We created our own Money issues, the Big10 wanted us over Maryland, but we ONCE AGAIN made the wrong decision and now we get only $27Million in TV Money while Maryland is now getting full shares from the Big10 - $55Million per yr, roughly double what we get from the crappy ACC

We leave the SEC over bullcrap "Academic Elitism" and now 40+ years later we get half as much in TV Money by turning down the Big10, neither of those 2 major screwups have anything to do with a small enrollment, or international students

After the State of GA was the 2nd Deep South State to Vote in a Lottery that funded PreK & Head-Start Programs for students, in addition to more Technology in K-12 Education - these Programs have a ripple down effect that positively impacts the Quality of HS Grads in your State

So after those above changes were adapted Statewide, what did GT do just a decade or so later?

Ans: they (The GTAA) VOLUNTARILY chose to go with a gimmicky Triple Option HC that ran an Offense that was clearly undesirable to Elite Recruits in the State of GA, this move made GT FB undesirable to the Top100 FB Recruits in GA, of those Top One Hundred - 70 to 80 are Academic Qualifiers for FB schollys at GT - so instead of GT FB cashing in on the increased numbers of Top100 Academic Qualifiers in- State, we went in the wrong direction with the Triple Option and made Recruiting easier for Stanford, Michigan, Notre Dame, Boston College, Duke, UVa , et al

In summary, the underlying theme that so many GT Fans miss is this:

It isn't the outside factors ( BOR, bagmen at other schools, The Hill, Fans, etc)

The thing(s) that have constantly set GT FB back and prevented us from Maximizing whatever you think we are as a FB Program is that EVERY SINGLE TIME GT FB has faced a critical "fork in the Road decision", we have made the worst possible decision

We left the SEC

We turned down the Big10 invite

We hired a Triple Option HC that was also too stubborn to adapt AT ALL

GT FB has been like a bad NFL Franchise, with a bad GM that should've been fired 5 years ago, but the Owner won't let him go & allows him to keep screwing up the Draft every yr

The Fans are that Owner, we set the Standard

The GT Fans thought it was "cute" to run the Triple Option for 11 years, "the hell with what some entitled HS thug thinks about our Offense, we're GT, this is how we do things take it or leave it"

But during that same 11 yr period, a guy like Saban went from ball control & Defense to sling it all over the yard, DESPITE having Championship success, one Guy changes & evolves while winning Championships , but the Guy we hire refuses to change & evolve while the Talent on the Roster wanes each yr

GT FB had the opportunity to take advantage of the increase in Academic Qualifiers in a State with Top4 HS FB Talent, but we voluntarily made the decision to bring in a HC that Elite Academic Qualifiers were allergic to, and then we do the "GT Thing" and start blaming Academics, The Media, The NCAA, everyone but ourselves and our own poorly thought out decisions

We have enough majors to have better talent on the Roster than we have, the previous HC failed at 80% of his Job Description and was widely loved & adored by the Fanbase, that right there should tell you where the Problems lie -why would any CFB Fanbase love a HC that's a terrible Recruiter?

IMGO GT's Fans are why we have the FB Program that we have
 

Augusta_Jacket

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You don't really think I believe this do you? It would serve the gods of football right but it is not going to happen. Fans will flock back like they always do...at least most of them. My Florida friends tell me that tickets at Ben Hill Griffin would have been pretty easy to come by had there not been COVID due to a number of factors including disenchantment with Mullins, underachieving talent (except as it turns out shoe tossing), and general malaise. We will see.

To a degree I do. When the product becomes bad enough, people will revolt. This won't happen next year, but it will eventually happen. I don't even think it will happen 'soon,' but eventually people are going to demand more. The current arms race in college football is financially untenable. We are already seeing that only a handful of schools have any legitimate shot at the playoffs. Right now every conference is built around 2-4 power teams and their opponents. So ask yourself, if you're a fan of one of the 50 schools in P5 with no realistic chance of ever playing for a title, how long do remain satisfied with the situation? This reality hasn't dawned on most college football fans yet, but when it does, I think there's going to be a minor revolt. We are already seeing that game attendance is down (prior to COVID) across the P5 schools, barring the few juggernauts. With the advent of the playoffs, bowl games mean even less and their TV ratings have declined. Now next year will probably be a boom year if attendance is allowed again. For the next few years, programs will probably see increased attendance because this year people realized what they missed, but down the road, there's going to be a reckoning and they will either drastically increase the playoffs (8-12 teams) to be more inclusive or people will start to walk away from the sport. I think the powers that be already foresee this and I am willing to bet that within a decade you will see an increased playoff field.
 
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