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Greece Vote
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<blockquote data-quote="cyptomcat" data-source="post: 158991" data-attributes="member: 323"><p>Also getting back to the original questions, some of the reasons Europeans ended up in this situation is that they knowingly encouraged or ignored corrupt Greek behavior:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">They repeatedly bribed Greeks into buying their stuff including expensive weapons, especially the Germans (eg Siemens and Ferrostaal) (Link 1)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">They gave money to Greece, so that Greece can in return pay European banks. (Link 2) In effect, the banks were bailed out for dangerous investments they made like the Greek bonds (Link 2). Mind you, these are the banks that also made risky Wall Street investments involved with the sub-prime mortgage crisis. (Link 3)</li> </ul><p>I saw an interesting comparison, to paraphrase: If bank leaders keep making dodgy loans to suspect customers, most likely because they want the high risk returns for their bank and bonuses for themselves, would you blame the suspect customer or the bank leader? We don't trust the former, but we do trust the latter when we use tax money to back our deposits at their institutions.</p><p></p><p>Back to the Greek side. They are obviously corrupt, and IMO Europe has ignored that, and did not deal with it properly. Greeks did somewhat follow the European and IMF suggestions, and improved its primary surplus to the goal of about 3%, yet the Greek GDP suffered in proportions that haven't been seen anywhere since post-WW2 problems. EU and IMF projections have been bad. And mind you, that was with non-Syriza governments. Considering the fruitless negotiations since January (which are actually similar to the 2010 negotiations in terms of drama), I think it's time to stop the drama and vote No. After the default, negotiate a haircut, and try to grow back. Voting Yes would probably mean a new political controversy, a new election (months?) might be necessary. I am not 100% sure about this, but I just have low expectations of the Eurozone after the deals and negotiations of the last 5-10 years.</p><p></p><p>Links:</p><p>(1) <a href="http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/apr/19/greece-military-spending-debt-crisis" target="_blank">http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/apr/19/greece-military-spending-debt-crisis</a></p><p>(2) <a href="http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/07/greek-people-have-paid-their-governments-mistakes-and-errors-troika" target="_blank">http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/07/greek-people-have-paid-their-governments-mistakes-and-errors-troika</a></p><p>(3) <a href="http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/dfe35888-4ca6-11df-9977-00144feab49a.html#axzz3f1gYHbvy" target="_blank">http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/dfe35888-4ca6-11df-9977-00144feab49a.html#axzz3f1gYHbvy</a></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="cyptomcat, post: 158991, member: 323"] Also getting back to the original questions, some of the reasons Europeans ended up in this situation is that they knowingly encouraged or ignored corrupt Greek behavior: [LIST] [*]They repeatedly bribed Greeks into buying their stuff including expensive weapons, especially the Germans (eg Siemens and Ferrostaal) (Link 1) [*]They gave money to Greece, so that Greece can in return pay European banks. (Link 2) In effect, the banks were bailed out for dangerous investments they made like the Greek bonds (Link 2). Mind you, these are the banks that also made risky Wall Street investments involved with the sub-prime mortgage crisis. (Link 3) [/LIST] I saw an interesting comparison, to paraphrase: If bank leaders keep making dodgy loans to suspect customers, most likely because they want the high risk returns for their bank and bonuses for themselves, would you blame the suspect customer or the bank leader? We don't trust the former, but we do trust the latter when we use tax money to back our deposits at their institutions. Back to the Greek side. They are obviously corrupt, and IMO Europe has ignored that, and did not deal with it properly. Greeks did somewhat follow the European and IMF suggestions, and improved its primary surplus to the goal of about 3%, yet the Greek GDP suffered in proportions that haven't been seen anywhere since post-WW2 problems. EU and IMF projections have been bad. And mind you, that was with non-Syriza governments. Considering the fruitless negotiations since January (which are actually similar to the 2010 negotiations in terms of drama), I think it's time to stop the drama and vote No. After the default, negotiate a haircut, and try to grow back. Voting Yes would probably mean a new political controversy, a new election (months?) might be necessary. I am not 100% sure about this, but I just have low expectations of the Eurozone after the deals and negotiations of the last 5-10 years. Links: (1) [URL]http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/apr/19/greece-military-spending-debt-crisis[/URL] (2) [URL]http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/07/greek-people-have-paid-their-governments-mistakes-and-errors-troika[/URL] (3) [URL]http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/dfe35888-4ca6-11df-9977-00144feab49a.html#axzz3f1gYHbvy[/URL] [/QUOTE]
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