Why a 15-team conference could work for football (yep, another realignment thread)

bensaysitathome

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
188
Hey everyone. I don't post a lot, but the general lack of sports has me getting antsy. Here's a thought I had this morning.

There's a lot of talk right now about how the ACC would react if ND makes the move to permanent football member. Usually, this is about who would be the potential 16th member. Right now, that looks like maybe WVU? A G5 school? Not a lot of desirable choices. So, what if we stayed at 15 teams?

I think three 5-team pods would work really well for the ACC. The proposed pod rosters below could be reworked, but there are definite benefits. You can keep 8 conference games for our OOC games, and at the end of the season you take the two highest Pod Champs by record, using tie-breakers. That way there's little chance of a 6-6 team sneaking in, and you would almost certainly have a more TV-friendly ACCCG matchup. The races would really matter to the end of the year (even if you've secured your pod, you care about the records of other winners). Plus you would have played every team once every four years, so theoretically, a student that plays four seasons sees every opponent at least once.

4 permanent matchups in your pod
1 permanent matchup from each of the other pods
1 rotating matchup from each of the other pods
(you could also rotate all 4 out-of-pod matchups, but this allows you to keep games like UVA-UNC, and GT-Clemson on a yearly basis)

POD A
BC
Syracuse
Pitt
VT
UVA

POD B
Duke
WF
NCSU
UNC
Clemson

POD C
ND
Lville
GT
Miami
FSU
 

gtrower

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,647
The whole point of sub dividing a conference is to determine the best teams from subgroups so they can all play each other for the championship. You do this because there are too many teams in the conference to all play each other in a 12 week season.

Having 3 divisions and simply choosing the two with the best records completely defeats the purpose of having divisions. In your scenario the five best teams could be in the same pod and get left out of the ACCCG all together.

Additionally, you said keep it at 8 conference games, but as far as so can tell have only described 6.
 

forensicbuzz

Helluva Engineer
Messages
3,659
Location
North Shore, Chicago
The whole point of sub dividing a conference is to determine the best teams from subgroups so they can all play each other for the championship. You do this because there are too many teams in the conference to all play each other in a 12 week season.

Having 3 divisions and simply choosing the two with the best records completely defeats the purpose of having divisions. In your scenario the five best teams could be in the same pod and get left out of the ACCCG all together.

Additionally, you said keep it at 8 conference games, but as far as so can tell have only described 6.
go back and re-read the post. 1 permanent from each pod = 2 permanent opponents. 1 rotating from each pod = 2 rotating opponents. 4 + 2 + 2 = 8. That being said, I've never been a fan of pods.
Also, as long as ND can be Independent, they will. Until they're forced to join a conference, they won't. It will take an awfully big stick/carrot to get ND to join a conference. I don't see it.
 

bensaysitathome

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
188
The whole point of sub dividing a conference is to determine the best teams from subgroups so they can all play each other for the championship. You do this because there are too many teams in the conference to all play each other in a 12 week season.

Having 3 divisions and simply choosing the two with the best records completely defeats the purpose of having divisions. In your scenario the five best teams could be in the same pod and get left out of the ACCCG all together.

Additionally, you said keep it at 8 conference games, but as far as so can tell have only described 6.

I agree that ND will remain independent for as long as they can. Honestly, I thought this was an interesting thing to think through.

Re: 6 vs 8 games, see forensiczbuzz's post above. With three pods, thats a permanent and a rotating for each of the other two.

"In your scenario the five best teams could be in the same pod and get left out of the ACCCG all together."
I see what you mean here. Like if there were two cupcake pods that led to winners with good records, but one that cannibalized. I guess my thought is, is this terribly different than what we have now? Where unbalanced divisions leave a good team out? How many times did Clemson or FSU play an easier team from the Coastal?
 

GoJacketsInRaleigh

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
105
Get rid of the pods. Have a single 15 team conference without divisions. Everyone has 4 permanent opponents. For the other 10 conference teams you play five of them home and home for two years. Then rotate to the other five for a home and home for two years. 9 conference games. The best two records play in the ACCCG.

Every four years you play everyone twice and four teams four times. That feels more like a conference than seeing some teams twice in 12 years.
 

RonJohn

Helluva Engineer
Messages
2,782
The biggest problem with pods is that a conference cannot have a championship game with a pod system. The ACC has looked at it before and has petitioned to be allowed to have a championship game with a pod system but was denied. The rules used to state that a championship game could only be played if a conference has two divisions and the division champions play each other. The Big 12 wanted to have a championship game after the playoffs started. The ACC pushed the P5 to change the rules to allow conferences to decide for themselves how to determine the players in the championship game. The P5 instead changed the rules so that a conference either has to have two divisions or have every team play every other team in the conference. That basically allowed the Big 12 to have a championship game but denied the ACC's request to enter a pod system.

Basically, the P5 group will not allow it. The ACC is probably thinking that the current situation could provide them with an opportunity to demonstrate a pod system with hopes of getting permission to use it later.
 

swarmer

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
548
I like the 16-team conference with 4 4-team pods. Play your regional pod every year; and rotate with other pod you play every three years. 7 conference games with more flexibility to schedule compelling non conference games.
 

BleedGoldNWhite21

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
638
ND will not join the ACC in football, go read their message board .

It’s unfortunate the ACC kissed ND’s *** and helped them this season. The ACC should have played hardball with them and made them join the conference long term or be **** out of luck this season. The current deal with ND doesn’t really benefit the ACC at all.

If the rest of college football really doesn’t like that ND is independent, they could change that themselves. Just don’t schedule them. I believe those types of politics will force ND to join a conference eventually, maybe when the playoff inevitably expands.
 

tsrich

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
429
Hey everyone. I don't post a lot, but the general lack of sports has me getting antsy. Here's a thought I had this morning.

There's a lot of talk right now about how the ACC would react if ND makes the move to permanent football member. Usually, this is about who would be the potential 16th member. Right now, that looks like maybe WVU? A G5 school? Not a lot of desirable choices. So, what if we stayed at 15 teams?

I think three 5-team pods would work really well for the ACC. The proposed pod rosters below could be reworked, but there are definite benefits. You can keep 8 conference games for our OOC games, and at the end of the season you take the two highest Pod Champs by record, using tie-breakers. That way there's little chance of a 6-6 team sneaking in, and you would almost certainly have a more TV-friendly ACCCG matchup. The races would really matter to the end of the year (even if you've secured your pod, you care about the records of other winners). Plus you would have played every team once every four years, so theoretically, a student that plays four seasons sees every opponent at least once.

4 permanent matchups in your pod
1 permanent matchup from each of the other pods
1 rotating matchup from each of the other pods
(you could also rotate all 4 out-of-pod matchups, but this allows you to keep games like UVA-UNC, and GT-Clemson on a yearly basis)

POD A
BC
Syracuse
Pitt
VT
UVA

POD B
Duke
WF
NCSU
UNC
Clemson

POD C
ND
Lville
GT
Miami
FSU
GT would never appear in the championship game again with that distribution of teams.

And Clemson would never miss another one.
 

GoJacketsInRaleigh

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
105
Get rid of the pods. Have a single 15 team conference without divisions. Everyone has 4 permanent opponents. For the other 10 conference teams you play five of them home and home for two years. Then rotate to the other five for a home and home for two years. 9 conference games. The best two records play in the ACCCG.

Every four years you play everyone twice and four teams four times. That feels more like a conference than seeing some teams twice in 12 years.

Bored this morning so came up with the 4 permanent opponents for everyone. Think most of this would be correct but could switch a few around easily. Teams like Louisville just have no rivals in this conference so nothing is really natural for them

Start with the 4 Carolina schools. They all play each other and need one more opponent each:

UNC - Duke, State, WF, and UVA
Duke - UNC, State, WF, and GT
State - Duke, UNC, WF, and Clemson (textile bowl)
WF - Duke, UNC, State, and Louisville

Now go up north and those schools all play each other including ND and need one more opponent each:
ND - BC, Pitt, Cuse, and Miami
BC - ND, Pitt, Cuse, and Miami
Cuse - ND, BC, Pitt, and UVA
Pitt - ND, BC, Cuse, and VT

Now let's fill out the rest
GT - Clemson, FSU, Duke, and UVA
Clemson - GT, FSU, Louisville and State
FSU - GT, Clemson, Miami, and Louisville
Miami - FSU, VT, ND, and BC
Louisville - Clemson, FSU, WF, and VT
VT - Miami, Louisville, UVA, and Pitt
UVA - VT, UNC, GT, and Cuse

What must happen games are missing here?
 

stech81

Helluva Engineer
Messages
6,210
Location
Woodstock Georgia
Bored this morning so came up with the 4 permanent opponents for everyone. Think most of this would be correct but could switch a few around easily. Teams like Louisville just have no rivals in this conference so nothing is really natural for them

Start with the 4 Carolina schools. They all play each other and need one more opponent each:

UNC - Duke, State, WF, and UVA
Duke - UNC, State, WF, and GT
State - Duke, UNC, WF, and Clemson (textile bowl)
WF - Duke, UNC, State, and Louisville

Now go up north and those schools all play each other including ND and need one more opponent each:
ND - BC, Pitt, Cuse, and Miami
BC - ND, Pitt, Cuse, and Miami
Cuse - ND, BC, Pitt, and UVA
Pitt - ND, BC, Cuse, and VT

Now let's fill out the rest
GT - Clemson, FSU, Duke, and UVA
Clemson - GT, FSU, Louisville and State
FSU - GT, Clemson, Miami, and Louisville
Miami - FSU, VT, ND, and BC
Louisville - Clemson, FSU, WF, and VT
VT - Miami, Louisville, UVA, and Pitt
UVA - VT, UNC, GT, and Cuse

What must happen games are missing here?
You are making it to easy for UNC
 

lv20gt

Helluva Engineer
Messages
3,292
Personally I don't like expanding. I actually think 12 teams is the best with an 8 game conference schedule. Seems like a smooth set up to me. With 14, and even more so 16, I think you run into issues where you play some teams so rarely that they don't really feel like conference games. IMO the best way to do a 16 team conference is basically to treat it like trying to create the best two 8 team conferences and then treating non divisional games as pseudo out of conference games (meaning trying to make it have no impact on choosing divisional winner except as a last case measure). So something like

ACC South
Miami
FSU
GT
Clemson
UNC
NCSU
Duke
Wake

ACC North
UL
VT
UVA
Pitt
ND
Cuse
BC
WVU (need a 16th)

There are some issues with this set up for sure, but I think it hits most of the major factors are hit. In general I don't see any reason that a south team would be disappointed. Of the north teams, maybe UL wouldn't like the set up. I think the biggest issue would be ND would probably hate this set up and wouldn't accept it as I believe the only real reason they'd want to join is the prospect of frequent trips south. So maybe switch miami and UL, and have one perma cross over game allowing for Miami to keep FSU, and ND to have GT and Miami yearly on alternating cycles.

I'm not a huge fan of the pod system, 3 or 4 pods, unless conferences are allowed semifinal games
 

bobongo

Helluva Engineer
Messages
2,398
Miami
FSU
GT
Clemson
UNC
NCSU
Duke
Wake
VT
Navy cause I like Navy
I like Navy, too, but I would substitute UVA for auld lang syne.
Either way it would be a true Atlantic coast conference with a pure champion.
Just like it once was.
 

bensaysitathome

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
188
I do wonder if there will be positive unintended consequences from this whole "adjusted season" that is 2020. It would be great if the NCAA would scrap their division requirement for a championship game, and all future seasons could do what we're doing this season - just let the two best teams play.
 

Ga tech

Georgia Tech Fan
Messages
32
Hey everyone. I don't post a lot, but the general lack of sports has me getting antsy. Here's a thought I had this morning.

There's a lot of talk right now about how the ACC would react if ND makes the move to permanent football member. Usually, this is about who would be the potential 16th member. Right now, that looks like maybe WVU? A G5 school? Not a lot of desirable choices. So, what if we stayed at 15 teams?

I think three 5-team pods would work really well for the ACC. The proposed pod rosters below could be reworked, but there are definite benefits. You can keep 8 conference games for our OOC games, and at the end of the season you take the two highest Pod Champs by record, using tie-breakers. That way there's little chance of a 6-6 team sneaking in, and you would almost certainly have a more TV-friendly ACCCG matchup. The races would really matter to the end of the year (even if you've secured your pod, you care about the records of other winners). Plus you would have played every team once every four years, so theoretically, a student that plays four seasons sees every opponent at least once.

4 permanent matchups in your pod
1 permanent matchup from each of the other pods
1 rotating matchup from each of the other pods
(you could also rotate all 4 out-of-pod matchups, but this allows you to keep games like UVA-UNC, and GT-Clemson on a yearly basis)

POD A
BC
Syracuse
Pitt
VT
UVA

POD B
Duke
WF
NCSU
UNC
Clemson

POD C
ND
Lville
GT
Miami
FSU
We would go 0-4 in our POD.
 

Ga tech

Georgia Tech Fan
Messages
32
Personally I don't like expanding. I actually think 12 teams is the best with an 8 game conference schedule. Seems like a smooth set up to me. With 14, and even more so 16, I think you run into issues where you play some teams so rarely that they don't really feel like conference games. IMO the best way to do a 16 team conference is basically to treat it like trying to create the best two 8 team conferences and then treating non divisional games as pseudo out of conference games (meaning trying to make it have no impact on choosing divisional winner except as a last case measure). So something like

ACC South
Miami
FSU
GT
Clemson
UNC
NCSU
Duke
Wake

ACC North
UL
VT
UVA
Pitt
ND
Cuse
BC
WVU (need a 16th)

There are some issues with this set up for sure, but I think it hits most of the major factors are hit. In general I don't see any reason that a south team would be disappointed. Of the north teams, maybe UL wouldn't like the set up. I think the biggest issue would be ND would probably hate this set up and wouldn't accept it as I believe the only real reason they'd want to join is the prospect of frequent trips south. So maybe switch miami and UL, and have one perma cross over game allowing for Miami to keep FSU, and ND to have GT and Miami yearly on alternating cycles.

I'm not a huge fan of the pod system, 3 or 4 pods, unless conferences are allowed semifinal games
We would consistently finish at the bottom.
 
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