The reports of the TO's death have been grossly exaggerated

Wrecked

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
495
most disappointing thing about long is we aren’t moving that fast. ole miss players were SPRINTING to get the ball down and get a play off. our guys just don’t have that and that is a huge edge
Teams that are undermanned talentwise, especially on defense, should be shortening the game not making it longer. That is what CPJ understood that CGC doesn't. Monken at Army lost his first two games this year because he lost TOP, Army has to win TOP because they are undermanned. Tech running a tempo offense is simply stupidity.
 

Wrecked

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
495
at the same time the staunch option defenders seem to ignore that johnson’s teams did have shortcomings and for as great as his offenses were he was only a marginal step better than what collins has given us defensively. for some reason paul got the praises of a head coach but the protection of an offensive coordinator. no one here ever asks any questions about how bad his defenses were. johnson and tech in general was also trending down and this is widely ignored as well

at the end of the day this is all arguments that have been made over and over and over and over. the only sure thing is the option is pretty unlikely to come back and if you want to watch option football then watch coastal and the service academies.
You do realize that CPJ was not allowed to hire his preferred DC for monetary reasons. I don't really want to get into if CPJ had been given Collins money to spend. And all this is just masturbation anyway, since IIWI with Collins. He needs to win Saturday.
 

Wrecked

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
495
This is true, but often due top Paul not being able to keep or hire the DCs he wanted. And some of those Ds were decent. And Woody has proven himself at Army.

But this is a long standing Tech problem. It is built around having a hard time finding, then recruiting DTs. Shoot, we had to go to OZ to find Gotsis and even that was a long shot; he was recruited as an OL. But - again - this is a reason why we were successful with the spread option: we held the ball so long that our Ds didn't have to be on the field much in most games. You can cover up a multitude of D sins by simply sitting on the ball like a slug. One of our main failures of vision has been to not see that football is a team sport: if you have weaknesses on one side of the ball (and most teams do) then you must compensate with strengths elsewhere to be successful. I think this is actually one of Collins's main problems. He doesn't want to admit that and work with what he has.
Army's defense sucks. I know I am a STH. His lack of D has cost them two games.
 

JacketFan137

Helluva Engineer
Messages
2,116
You do realize that CPJ was not allowed to hire his preferred DC for monetary reasons. I don't really want to get into if CPJ had been given Collins money to spend. And all this is just masturbation anyway, since IIWI with Collins. He needs to win Saturday.
that last part is a wild thing to say. i can’t even argue or debate anything cause that’s just off the wall lol
 

BainbridgeJacket

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,071
You do realize that CPJ was not allowed to hire his preferred DC for monetary reasons. I don't really want to get into if CPJ had been given Collins money to spend. And all this is just masturbation anyway, since IIWI with Collins. He needs to win Saturday.
Do you have any proof of this whatsoever?
 

GTpdm

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,678
Location
Atlanta GA
i’m not sure if money would have been enough. by the end of johnson’s career he was basically a ghost recruiting wise.
How much recruiting have you done at the P5 level?

Me, I’ve done none…but I have decades of experience as a faculty member at Tech teaching the large core-curriculum science courses. I can assure you that for every task my job requires, the out-in-front-of-everyone part of it is tiny in comparison to the what-must-be-done-behind-the-scenes part of it. When you are short of support staff, all that behind-the-scenes stuff—which is stuff that HAS to be done—is done by you. And to do that, you have to choose something else that you WON’T do, or that you’ll put only a partial effort into.

Call me a fool, but I suspect that recruiting at the P5 level also has an iceberg worth of what-must-be-done-behind-the-scenes. Recruiting film doesn’t review itself. if you don’t have a staff to do it for you, you have to review it yourself.

Johnson was literally starved of resources (critical facilities and personnel) by Sasquatsch, at a time when there was an arms race of programs growing their recruiting staffs. Hell, Duke—a team that everyone here wants to hold up as an example of a program that should be beneath us—had more recruiting staff than we did at the end of Johnson’s tenure.

It is easy to call someone out for ghosting their job responsibilities when you don’t give any consideration to how their hands were tied behind their back by a lack of critical resources that were a given for all their competitors.

Comparing CPJ’s recruiting to CGC’s recruiting as if there were a level playing field involved is showing your bias.
 

ilovetheoption

Helluva Engineer
Messages
2,795
I won’t debate what’s the centerpiece - midline is crucial and was huge for GT.

You can run midline from the pistol - I did - but, to your point, it becomes a very different play, even if blocked the same, because of the relatively glacial movement and the way the runner’s path would have to bow back against the grain. The veer would hit slower too, but you’d still have roughly the same path for the B-back.

You ran midline out of the pistol? I coached a pistol team, and we never even CONSIDERED midline! We took everything veer out, and ran all gap-scheme stuff (we were basically a pistol-I team).

That seems like the DT would have SUCH a good angle to attack the mesh point and tackle both guys, or at least really blow up the play. With him getting to get more vertical, it feels like it would have been a SUPER hard read for your QB.

What was your experience there?
 

jgtengineer

Helluva Engineer
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2,427
You ran midline out of the pistol? I coached a pistol team, and we never even CONSIDERED midline! We took everything veer out, and ran all gap-scheme stuff (we were basically a pistol-I team).

That seems like the DT would have SUCH a good angle to attack the mesh point and tackle both guys, or at least really blow up the play. With him getting to get more vertical, it feels like it would have been a SUPER hard read for your QB.

What was your experience there?

This was pretty much what i was talking about it turns into a sort of freeze draw type read where you read the angle the DT is making. I watched Georgia Southern run it with mixed success with Debasse as their OC. We also ran it when i was in high school for what its worth. Typically we ran it when a Tackle was heavy crashing the RB as more of a misdirection type ball handling though the QB had the option to give if the Tackle shot out like he was taking the QB on it. Im interested in how he ran it.
 

ilovetheoption

Helluva Engineer
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2,795
This was pretty much what i was talking about it turns into a sort of freeze draw type read where you read the angle the DT is making. I watched Georgia Southern run it with mixed success with Debasse as their OC. We also ran it when i was in high school for what its worth. Typically we ran it when a Tackle was heavy crashing the RB as more of a misdirection type ball handling though the QB had the option to give if the Tackle shot out like he was taking the QB on it. Im interested in how he ran it.
So you guys only ran it situationally when you had a DT who was giving you a specific look?

How wide were your splits? I'm asking because with traditional splits, it feels like that DT (I'm assuming you only ran it at 3-Techniques) would be able to have a pretty vertical route to attack the mesh point. Obviously I'm wrong, because you succeeded with it, but I would just imagine the DT attacking the mesh point with both arms spread wide, and try to tackle both players, or at least make the QB bow out enough that the timing was hosed and the hole was closed.

What am I missing?
 

jgtengineer

Helluva Engineer
Messages
2,427
So you guys only ran it situationally when you had a DT who was giving you a specific look?

How wide were your splits? I'm asking because with traditional splits, it feels like that DT (I'm assuming you only ran it at 3-Techniques) would be able to have a pretty vertical route to attack the mesh point. Obviously I'm wrong, because you succeeded with it, but I would just imagine the DT attacking the mesh point with both arms spread wide, and try to tackle both players, or at least make the QB bow out enough that the timing was hosed and the hole was closed.

What am I missing?

Wide we used 3 foot splits at the smallest when in our pistol sets. You only ran it at a 3 tech or a 5 tech in an odd front. It worked better against the 5 tech your guard would scrape the nose to the backer or if you were getting enough push you'd do a zero cross block with the guard and the center on the 0 tech and the center would seal will. your tackle is headed for mike while the A back is inside release blockgin the outside backer.. while your tackle attemtpts inside release if the read key went with him (crossed inside) he is washed down by the tackle the QB immedieatly pulls the ball and follows the B back like an off guard zone iso.
If he outside releases (which might mean they were cross checking or hard flowing and shooting this guy out it becomes an almsot influence trap.

Agaisnt a three tech the center blocks back the backside guard crosses behidn the guard two guards head to mike and will/ safety depending on flow, while the tackle takes outside strong side backer. the idea is the three tech is forced into conflict of stayign home because we've probably influence trapped him (the guard is pulling after all so it looks like a trap is coming) if he crashes QB pulls runs through the new ally if he comes up field QB hands and you have the BB running right past him. The QB can also check from Pistol to undercenter if he reads the tackle playing particularly tight. Hope that makes sense. Hard to do this without diagrams.

Again this isn't something you do 10-15 times a game like a regular midline. We also had a WR RPO off of this. Wher ethe QB could pull it and throw a screen to the Wide receiver if the corner bailed.
 

CEB

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
893
So you guys only ran it situationally when you had a DT who was giving you a specific look?

How wide were your splits? I'm asking because with traditional splits, it feels like that DT (I'm assuming you only ran it at 3-Techniques) would be able to have a pretty vertical route to attack the mesh point. Obviously I'm wrong, because you succeeded with it, but I would just imagine the DT attacking the mesh point with both arms spread wide, and try to tackle both players, or at least make the QB bow out enough that the timing was hosed and the hole was closed.

What am I missing?
I’m full of anticipation here....
That dive / keep read has to happen with the DT close enough that he can’t recover from the wrong read. From the pistol, unless you are delaying for the DT to overpursue upfield, I agree his pursuit angle takes both QB and BB. But if you delay for pursuit upfield, the mesh is happening -3 yards with a DT -2...better hold blocks!
Trying to remember where I’ve seen it... I’m sure several do it... but I’ve seen the QB in the pistol / shotgun with BB mesh actually moving toward the line. I don’t think it’s a midline play, though. I thought it was off the DE.
I also may be making stuff up... it’s getting late. :D
 

ilovetheoption

Helluva Engineer
Messages
2,795
I’m full of anticipation here....
That dive / keep read has to happen with the DT close enough that he can’t recover from the wrong read. From the pistol, unless you are delaying for the DT to overpursue upfield, I agree his pursuit angle takes both QB and BB. But if you delay for pursuit upfield, the mesh is happening -3 yards with a DT -2...better hold blocks!
Trying to remember where I’ve seen it... I’m sure several do it... but I’ve seen the QB in the pistol / shotgun with BB mesh actually moving toward the line. I don’t think it’s a midline play, though. I thought it was off the DE.
I also may be making stuff up... it’s getting late. :D
You're thinking of Wake Forest, and yeah, they do this CRAZY extended mesh. But you're also right that that's zone read, and they're reading the backside end, as opposed to the much tougher (IMO) playside tackle read
 

jgtengineer

Helluva Engineer
Messages
2,427
I’m full of anticipation here....
That dive / keep read has to happen with the DT close enough that he can’t recover from the wrong read. From the pistol, unless you are delaying for the DT to overpursue upfield, I agree his pursuit angle takes both QB and BB. But if you delay for pursuit upfield, the mesh is happening -3 yards with a DT -2...better hold blocks!
Trying to remember where I’ve seen it... I’m sure several do it... but I’ve seen the QB in the pistol / shotgun with BB mesh actually moving toward the line. I don’t think it’s a midline play, though. I thought it was off the DE.
I also may be making stuff up... it’s getting late. :D
It is a midline action against a 5 Tech or overzealous 3. GSU ran it a bit with Matt Brieda.
 

ilovetheoption

Helluva Engineer
Messages
2,795
Wide we used 3 foot splits at the smallest when in our pistol sets. You only ran it at a 3 tech or a 5 tech in an odd front. It worked better against the 5 tech your guard would scrape the nose to the backer or if you were getting enough push you'd do a zero cross block with the guard and the center on the 0 tech and the center would seal will. your tackle is headed for mike while the A back is inside release blockgin the outside backer.. while your tackle attemtpts inside release if the read key went with him (crossed inside) he is washed down by the tackle the QB immedieatly pulls the ball and follows the B back like an off guard zone iso.
If he outside releases (which might mean they were cross checking or hard flowing and shooting this guy out it becomes an almsot influence trap.

Agaisnt a three tech the center blocks back the backside guard crosses behidn the guard two guards head to mike and will/ safety depending on flow, while the tackle takes outside strong side backer. the idea is the three tech is forced into conflict of stayign home because we've probably influence trapped him (the guard is pulling after all so it looks like a trap is coming) if he crashes QB pulls runs through the new ally if he comes up field QB hands and you have the BB running right past him. The QB can also check from Pistol to undercenter if he reads the tackle playing particularly tight. Hope that makes sense. Hard to do this without diagrams.

Again this isn't something you do 10-15 times a game like a regular midline. We also had a WR RPO off of this. Wher ethe QB could pull it and throw a screen to the Wide receiver if the corner bailed.

OH! Duh, yeah, no, actually I wasn't even thinking odd front. Ok, yeah, against Odd front maybe the angle is severe enough that it's a make-able read.

Hilariously, while reading this I was thinking "huh, it's almost like an influence trap"...then kept reading.

Ok, I can wrap my head around that. More bread and butter against odd, but something you can occasionally spring against even. I get it, but it feels like an expensive install for what is to my mind kind of a marginal buy, no?
 

jgtengineer

Helluva Engineer
Messages
2,427
OH! Duh, yeah, no, actually I wasn't even thinking odd front. Ok, yeah, against Odd front maybe the angle is severe enough that it's a make-able read.

Hilariously, while reading this I was thinking "huh, it's almost like an influence trap"...then kept reading.

Ok, I can wrap my head around that. More bread and butter against odd, but something you can occasionally spring against even. I get it, but it feels like an expensive install for what is to my mind kind of a marginal buy, no?

The lien action is exactly the same as a 10 series midline so its really just on your QB and BB Because if yoru runnign midlien agianst Odd front and the guy cuts the tackle off he washes anyway and its a keep read autmatically for the QB. So its not as expensive as you would think when your midlining all the time. And have an agile line with lots of pulling.

Our main constaint play was actually B back trap in due to the agility we had at guard. Against a lesser team we might run 33 or 32 trap 30 times a game.

Will say this the RPO action off a cross charging LB when suddnely your WR is 30 yards down the field is hilarious.
 
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