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Tax & spenders rejoicing across the land

Discussion in 'The Swarm Lounge' started by LibertyTurns, May 7, 2018.

  1. ramblinwreckguru

    ramblinwreckguru Helluva Engineer

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    Truth. WE pay for all corporate taxes. So much for taxing the rich corporations. The downstream peasants are the ones who get screwed when congress levies new taxes on the rich mean corporations.
     
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  2. GTRules

    GTRules Jolly Good Fellow

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    Every dime that any government entity collects in any kind of tax comes out of the pocket of an individual person. If the corporation writes the check, that does not change.
     
  3. LibertyTurns

    LibertyTurns Helluva Engineer

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    You are correct, sir! Might I add that very little of the tax collected from the people is paid by the rich guy they’re trying to get it from. The hire lawyers & accountants to avoid and failing that they raise prices of the goods & services they control in order to pay for any tax they ultimately end up paying. Rich they are, dumb they are not.
     
    bwelbo likes this.
  4. Sidewalking

    Sidewalking Banned

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    Fair Tax. If not familiar research it. It is aptly named.
     
    Technut1990 likes this.
  5. bwelbo

    bwelbo Helluva Engineer

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    https://fee.org/articles/subprime-l...BI1Jegt2hkP9B92e3UM0ZOISFVTR9xD1X3GrhONem4UsY

    Same thing again - we are buying things with money we do not have and cannot afford.

    If we see the same sort of collapse again, can we please this time remember not to blame Bush or Obama or Trump - its people taking loans they can't afford and banks approving them. The way this is supposed to work is people file for bankruptcy or go into default if they can't pay the loans. And if banks make so many bad ones that they're hurt financially, the FDIC has processes to help take over the banks while they're absorbed by another one.

    The government does play a role here though, by printing so much money and buying our own debt, it holds interest rates artificially low, incenting this type of bad financial behavior.
     
  6. bwelbo

    bwelbo Helluva Engineer

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  7. LibertyTurns

    LibertyTurns Helluva Engineer

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    Here, read the actual report instead of the misleading article you cited. They cherry picked derogatory information & ignored the much higher instances of positive aspects apparent in the data.

    https://www.newyorkfed.org/medialibrary/interactives/householdcredit/data/pdf/HHDC_2019Q4.pdf
     
  8. awbuzz

    awbuzz Helluva Engineer

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    Correct!
     
  9. bwelbo

    bwelbo Helluva Engineer

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  10. LibertyTurns

    LibertyTurns Helluva Engineer

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    Well, this thread was conceived precisely because of your allegation that there’s some grand conspiracy against spending. Our government confiscates increasingly outrageous amounts of money from the people each year. The Federal & State government’s appetite for other people’s money is endless & the waste is enormous in every corner of our nation. There’s no accountability, results of our expenditures are unquestionably poor & getting poorer by the day, etc. We’ve been staring at skyrocketing government spending for a decade (arguably for 6 decades) AND massively increased revenue collection albeit at a fraction of our spending increases. Revenue generation is not our nation’s problem, we are crack addicted to wasting money on anything & everything we can think of.

    First, you like others are confused between the terms Conservative & Republicans. A Conservative may be a Republican (many are not) but most Republicans are not Conservative. For example a Conservative is religious about fiscal responsibility, a Republican could not care less, it’s just political window dressing to them. A slogan to be uttered to differentiate them from an unabashed out of control Liberal spender. Maybe it makes them feel good?

    Conservatives are not against spending. Conservatives are vehemently against spending where the money allocated is not efficiently used. For example, we’ll gladly pay for schools but we’ll fight tooth & nail against you spending money on a failing school with no plan to improve. We’d pay dearly for medical services for every man, woman & child (& others), but we’re adamant that we’re not wasting 60% of what we’re spending by providing unnecessary tests, overmedicating, paying exorbitant costs for medicines & surgeries with terrible efficacy rates, etc. Bureaucratic waste & inefficiencies contrary to good business practices makes us go ape. We don’t live our lives like that & we sure as heck don’t want you hijacking our money & flushing it down the old crapper. We’ll put money in but we want results out. Anything short of that is unacceptable to us. Warping statistics to make something into something it’s not is infuriating.

    That’s this Conservative’s take on spending.
     
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  11. takethepoints

    takethepoints Helluva Engineer

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    A. It isn't the amount of taxes that matters here. It's the rates. Those are low and getting lower for those who can most afford to contribute. Tax revenues always go up in a prolonged expansion. Low inflation mens they are higher in real terms too.

    B. The present yield on 10 year T-bills = 1.58%. The government sells out every batch they put out. As long as long term growth is over 1.59%, people are paying the government to hold its debt. Until that reverses - and the markets sure don't expect it in the next 10 years - we can spend money like drunk sailors in Macao and our descendants will be able to pay it all off without any trouble. They'll roll it over, of course.
     
  12. bwelbo

    bwelbo Helluva Engineer

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    A) Based on everything I've read, I don't think this is true. With the cap on deductions, its the upper middle class that's been all hit with higher taxes due. Corporate tax rates were cut in almost half to 21%, so corporate tax revenue has been down IIRC. So personal income taxes have been substantially higher.
    B) That's the risk - that we can spend forever and its no big deal. The only reason we can sell so much debt right now is because we're printing so much money to buy it back ourselves. Our balance sheet at the Fed has grown by a couple trillion in the last year IIRC.

    If the world ever stops buying our debt or stops believing in our dollar because of these shenanigans, we're screwed. Artificially low interest rates as you say encourage people to buy things they can't afford. When the economy turns, which it will, it will be painful just like the last downturn...x2. We will have $2T single year deficits. Interest rates should be substantially higher now to get rid of all this malinvestment and to encourage savings and investment. But when interest rates rise, our servicing of the debt (already over $500B/year) will consume the entire budget by itself. We're screwed. Just don't know exactly when yet.

    Total tax revenue when Obama was inaugurated was $2.1T. It will be around $3.9T this year.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
  13. takethepoints

    takethepoints Helluva Engineer

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    A. I said those most able to pay. I didn't say that tax rates for the middle class wouldn't go up. They will and soon; the relief is strictly temporary. For the upper 5% or so, not so much.

    B. The reason we can see so much debt now has little to do with the money supply. It has to do with the lack of new business investment world wide. People are still fleeing to steady, safe investments. Most of the smart money has decided that growth is unlikely to get much better then it is right now in the US, but, since that's better then in the EU or capitalist Asia, they buy US treasuries. Most of the "investment" you see right now is corporations buying their own stock to keep the price up. Hence the surprising increase in finance as a share of GNP. Industrial investment has been in the tank for some time now. And, since the US needs to keep pumping money into the economy to keep consumer spending up, we (and the FED) go into debt to do it. We won't see many consequences from this for the near future either. But it has little to do with the money supply; Keynes was right about the negligible influence of monetary policy during economic downturns. And make no mistake about it: we are still in one and haven't done enough to get out of it.
     
  14. bwelbo

    bwelbo Helluva Engineer

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    Well Keynes was eight about monetary policy during downturns, but he was wrong about the starting premise. The government needs to get out of the way and stop making things worse and then demand to get more money to fix it...and rinse and repeat.
     
  15. bwelbo

    bwelbo Helluva Engineer

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  16. LibertyTurns

    LibertyTurns Helluva Engineer

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  17. MountainBuzzMan

    MountainBuzzMan Helluva Engineer

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    China's economy will probably be far worse (If we could see the actual numbers). But a lot of that will just be postponed. My company gets all but a handful of components made in the US. Some things are almost impossible to get in the US. We had an order for 5,000 of a part number and they only had about 2,100 ready when the virus hit. They shipped those and they don't know when their factory will start back up. But we will still need all of those components plus the next order of 5,000. The country will have to work extra hard to get caught back up on existing orders.

    As a side not does anyone know of any speaker manufactures in the US? The only one we know of is www.eminence.com. They make very high end speakers.
     
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  18. LibertyTurns

    LibertyTurns Helluva Engineer

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    Those poor kids won’t get any recess time. Imagine what it’s like to be 7 yrs old and having to put in a 14 hr shift. Insane. They’re also probably going to raid the diaper line at the day care center to get the other units made. Well they could go beat the Uighurs some more. They might be able to crank out some more production with a few more good butt whoopings.
     
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  19. Technut1990

    Technut1990 Helluva Engineer

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    Ever wonder how the media try’s to control thought ?

    Only in America can a Republican President get heat for issuing a pardon to a convicted Democrat governor and it be twisted in a bad light on the Republican
     
  20. armeck

    armeck Ramblin' Wreck

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