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Tax & spenders rejoicing across the land

Discussion in 'The Swarm Lounge' started by LibertyTurns, May 7, 2018.

  1. Lotta Juice

    Lotta Juice Jolly Good Fellow

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    I do.

    Mr. MWBATL clearly does not since he seems to be equating everyone having the right to vote to "pure democracy". Which is idiocy and would ironically disqualify Mr. MWBATL from voting by his OWN likely standards of not allowing idiots to vote.

    And Mr. GT_05 is much more broad in his hatred for democracy.

    So nothing I said was incorrect and you're throwing a fit.
     
  2. Whiskey_Clear

    Whiskey_Clear Helluva Engineer

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    Lol, the one throwing the fit is the one using asterisks to bypass filters. That’s you bub.

    And it’s pretty clear they were primarily speaking about idiots voting and pure democracies. @MWBATL soecifically said pure democracy and @GT_05 quoted that post in his reply.

    Maybe if you weren’t throwing a fit you would have caught onto that.
     
    GT_05 likes this.
  3. Lotta Juice

    Lotta Juice Jolly Good Fellow

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    Wut? Is this a QAnon theory?

    \

    And here come the troops to support their attacks on democracy!!!

    That's exactly the problem. MWBATL is equating "idiots voting" with a pure democracy and complaining about it. We don't have a pure democracy so there's nothing to complain about in that regard. And I have a hunch that his version of "idiots voting" is anyone who disagrees with him. He doesn't get to dictate who the idiots are and until anyone can provide an objective measure of who is an "idiot that doesn't get to vote" then these attacks are on democracy as a whole.
     
  4. MWBATL

    MWBATL Helluva Engineer

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    3,377
    We were NEVER founded as a pure democracy. In fact, if you have read much of what the Founding Fathers wrote, they describe pure democracy as the Tyranny of the Majority. Our Republic was specifically designed to avoid the worst aspects of a pure Democracy.

    Ergo, by denouncing me as an idiot you are denouncing our Founding Fathers and the government they designed as idiotic since they loathed and feared what a pure Democracy would do to America.

    Perhaps you should actually study a bit more and read a bit more about WHY our Founding Fathers avoided establishing our country as a democracy.

    Or perhaps you are simply another MSM educated ignoramus who thinks that "democracy" is a sacred word that cannot be used negatively. You folks stick to your religion (of progressivism) and cling to you pre-conceived notions. Don't bother going to read what the Founding Fathers explained about the reasons they opposed it....

    In point of fact, the original Constitution had no "right to vote" language. There was a reason for that. The only people who were allowed to vote at the time of the Constitution were property owners.....in essence, tax payers. And states had the right to decide who could vote...not the Federal Government. Things seemed to work much better for us back in those first 100-150 years, if you look at it realistically.
     
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  5. MWBATL

    MWBATL Helluva Engineer

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    I know I shouldn't do this, but...if universal voting is NOT your definition of "pure democracy", what is?
     
  6. Lotta Juice

    Lotta Juice Jolly Good Fellow

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    Ok, you're fighting a strawman. I never proposed we were founded as a pure democracy. You were the one complaining about it.

    Nope. It is very possible for the founding fathers to be wise and you still be an idiot and interpret them incorrectly.

    This is great. When someone tells you exactly who they are. "Things seemed to work much better for us back in those first 100-150 years, [when women and black people and immigrants couldn't vote.]" - MWBATL
    Bravo.
     
  7. Lotta Juice

    Lotta Juice Jolly Good Fellow

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    It is actually sad that I would have to explain this to you all while you're going to act like a smart person and hang that over the "idiots" who still get to vote.

    And yeah, you shouldn't have done this because you're just exposing how ignorant you are. A pure democracy would look closer to every person in the country voting on every piece of legislation.

    Everyone getting a chance to vote for their representative is just equal rights.
     
  8. bwelbo

    bwelbo Helluva Engineer

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    8,900
    Oh boy, here we go again. A debate heats up, so here comes the Liberal who cried racism. So lazy.
     
    GT_05 likes this.
  9. LibertyTurns

    LibertyTurns Helluva Engineer

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    2,903
    Well this has gotten kind of interesting albeit off-track.

    Gotta say @Lotta Juice is not chucking the racist card. We have laws in place to identify those allowed to vote. They certainly were not the same people that were allowed to vote as in the late 1700’s.

    I am encouraged by the recent surge of folks seemingly interested in applying our Constitution to the issues at hand. After all that is the foundational legal basis of our country and should have been every law that emerged from that unique historical document.
     
  10. bwelbo

    bwelbo Helluva Engineer

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    Edit: nevermind. I’m not going to contribute to that guy’s detour.
     
  11. GT_05

    GT_05 Helluva Engineer

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    If you think that pure democracy is American and patriotic then you need to do some reading. We are not a pure democracy in the U.S. and my quote was stating I’m glad we don’t live in a pure democracy. Pure democracy is mob rule.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  12. bwelbo

    bwelbo Helluva Engineer

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    The Clinton elections (he never got 50% of the vote and once only got 43%), the Trump election, and the infatuation with AOC are all reasons why we’re not a Democracy. New York and Los Angeles (where the entire popular margin for Hillary was) should not lead policy for the country.

    Many people want to get rid of the electoral college and call it racist and so on. But the reality is we are supposed to be a nation of states. The Federal Government is only supposed to run a couple things like the military and that’s it. We are supposed to be California with abortion, universal healthcare, electric cars, and South Carolina with no abortion, market-driven healthcare and so on. People can move and vote with their feet. But we’ve bastardized our country into all these things somehow becoming Federal nationwide Rights. Sad. But more sad is that people apparently don’t even learn all this in school anymore.
     
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  13. LibertyTurns

    LibertyTurns Helluva Engineer

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    @bwelbo It’s really sad we can’t seemingly have open debate anymore about substantive issues. You try to discuss the basis behind the laws or policies & all you get is hollow uninformed responses. I attribute this to people not reading any more. Many see a Hollywood type slick advertising attention-getting video or picture, maybe a short article that’s structured more like a comic book than an editorial discussion, often associated superficially to some celebrity and it catches like wildfire.

    We could have really moved the needle racially in the past decade but we lurched to identity politics as a strategic move to galvanize a voting base & move the political center in this country more left of center. It would have been child’s play to seize the center/center right & amass a significant majority which would have dominated American politics for generations to come. That wasn’t the motive of senior political and government leaders, hence we now have one of the most divisive environments between the sides where it’s a virtual bloody mess over issues which are really fairly straightforward and the vast majority of Americans would agree.
     
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  14. GT_05

    GT_05 Helluva Engineer

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    1,740
    There’s so much misinformation around Presidential elections. First, there is no constitutional right for ANYONE to vote for President of the United States. Secondly, the 15th and 19th amendments stated that people could not be excluded from voting based on race, color, sex, or previous condition of servitude. However, these amendments did not explicitly give these citizens or any other citizens the right to vote in a Presidential election. Thirdly, the electorate is not required by Federal law to vote based on the results of the popular vote, although some states do require it.

    Yes, we are a nation of states and I’m thankful that we are not run by mob rule.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  15. LibertyTurns

    LibertyTurns Helluva Engineer

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    @GT_05 I understand the Constitution did not originally define who was allowed to vote & left that up to the states, however, subsequent amendments make it clear that if you have a vote to decide something then citizens are allowed to vote. You are correct that a state legislature could for example decide the distribution of electoral votes for candidates in a Presidental election without requiring the general population to go vote.
     
  16. GT_05

    GT_05 Helluva Engineer

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    The SCOTUS ruling on Bush v. Gore states this: “[t]he individual citizen has no federal constitutional right to vote for electors for the President of the United States.”



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  17. Technut1990

    Technut1990 Helluva Engineer

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    A couple of things,

    We never lived in a pure democracy true but it’s not really that question that drives our problems. The question is how long does the power holders trick our society into believing we do ? Both parties play off certain “rights” being threatened, when in fact they aren’t rights at all.

    Secondly regardless of how the country was founded it isn’t working as it was founded anymore. Decisions by the courts have, IMO, usurped the founders intent. The founders required that States ratify certain things and intentionally gave states more power than the Feds. When a Federal court rules that the very states which formed a union cannot leave that voluntary bond, it’s a usurpation, when the courts rule that a person is only 3/5ths of himself it’s a problem, when a court rules that the citizens have no rights under the electoral process it’s a problem. All of these rulings were made by a Federal central government which by its usurpations have made a slow but sure power grab and everyday that centralized power, which was intentionally avoided and discouraged by the founders, is growing stronger.

    While states have made terrible decisions, the founders gave them - through their citizens, control of their destiny. Georgia and other states in this country chose slavery and that choice, as wrong as it was, had consequential impact on all of us throughout our history. Those consequences led to a federal power imposing its will on member states and it’s a very large reason we are where we are today. It was at that moment in our history that states, and therefore the founders, lost this country. We became reliant on the central power and the central power claimed, by force, the right to implement its will upon all of us, it does so on everything today. The question of civil rights was answered by the Feds but the loss of individual rights was the price.

    This is the best case example of no good deed goes unpunished. But for the blight of slavery a true representative republic was founded and because of it our rights were forever lost.
     
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  18. LibertyTurns

    LibertyTurns Helluva Engineer

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    2,903
    ...Unless and until the state legislature chooses a statewide election as a means to implement its power to appoint members of the electoral college.

    I had one of the non-counted military ballots because back in the day postmarks were not required on military mail coming from overseas back to the United States. Since my ballot was “unable to be determined when I voted” and I just happened to be registered to vote in a precinct that was predisposed to not counting military absentee ballots, it was not included in the 2,411 overseas ballots rejected.

    Regrettably 12/10/2000 SCOTUS 7-2 ruling on Equal Protection could not be enforced in time to meet the 12/12/2000 election certification deadline. My particular circumstance & the couple thousand in the same boat was a matter for another ruling that never happened as the ultimate outcome was a moot point. The military changed their mail procedures and that particular situation is no longer relevant. It is a pretty sad commentary that there were so many so-called patriots running around denying military members their right to vote as a means to alter the outcome of an election. It’s almost 20 years later & I still hate those bastards for what they did. If you vote & follow the rules your vote should count. Whatever the outcome is is irrelevant, but when you start messing with people’s Constitutional rights then you’ve crossed a line.
     
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  19. GT_05

    GT_05 Helluva Engineer

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    1,740
    I don’t remember the military vote issue you are talking about. Regardless of postmark date, military votes should’ve been counted. Period. How can you not count the votes of the people who protect our freedom? Idiocy.


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  20. Whiskey_Clear

    Whiskey_Clear Helluva Engineer

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    The resolution of the Civil War, and federal government actions following it created some problems and alleviated others.

    The real downfall of states rights vs the fed came in the SCOTUS ruling regarding the Interstate Commerce Clause which granted the federal government supremacy in nearly all things ever after.
     
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