Surfside building collapse

orientalnc

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Question for one of you structural engineers. Given how long it's been since the oceanfront portion of the building fell, and the nervousness about the remaining portion, wouldn't it be better to bring down the rest now? You know it's coming down eventually. No one is ever going to live in that building again.
 
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Northeast Stinger

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Yeah, I don’t think you can drop the building when there are people who think their loved ones are still inside. They would forever wonder if their loved one was still alive in a pocket before the building came down.

This is a brutally difficult time for family.
 

RonJohn

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The current plan is to bring the rest of the building down as early as tomorrow.
At this point it has been 9 days. They are concerned that the storm that is potentially heading there could topple the remaining part of the building in an uncontrolled manner. It is one thing to be hopeful for survivors and sympathetic to their loved ones. It is another thing to allow extreme danger to other people's life and property when there is very little chance of any survivors in the rubble at this point. (9 days being trapped with no food or water)
 

GT_EE78

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looks to me that the collapsed building is behind(toward the ocean) of the demolished.
The demolished bldg seems to have come down toward the inland side and not on top of the rubble.
Here's the video.
 

RonJohn

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this one has some root cause and failure analysis.
no idea what the guy's background is

According to his profile on YouTube:

Welcome fellow DIY engineers, I'm Jeff Ostroff making your life easier, with detailed weekly videos for Do It Yourself folks with advice on home remodeling, home repairs, and How To videos.
We are advocates for people who got ripped off from contractors or builders behaving badly leaving you with an engineering disaster.

I don't see anything on his channel that indicates he has any professional training in structural engineering.

This incident has been a prime example of my pet peeve of sloppy (at best) journalism. I have read a few articles that provide several potential causes of the collapse while clearly stating that the actual cause(s) of the collapse are not known at this time and will be determined by experts later. I have seen tons of articles in which claims are made about what caused the collapse. I have seen articles in which the authors appear to want to be the "first" to get information into the public. I have seen headlines that make implications without any justification. (Navy Denies Explosion Testing off Coast of Florida Caused Building Collapse) There are some instances where speed of getting information out is important, even if not all of the information is known. Reporting that the building collapsed quickly was responsible. Reporting that you know why the building collapsed, when you only have potential contributing factors, is not responsible.
 

GT_EE78

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According to his profile on YouTube:




I don't see anything on his channel that indicates he has any professional training in structural engineering.

This incident has been a prime example of my pet peeve of sloppy (at best) journalism. I have read a few articles that provide several potential causes of the collapse while clearly stating that the actual cause(s) of the collapse are not known at this time and will be determined by experts later. I have seen tons of articles in which claims are made about what caused the collapse. I have seen articles in which the authors appear to want to be the "first" to get information into the public. I have seen headlines that make implications without any justification. (Navy Denies Explosion Testing off Coast of Florida Caused Building Collapse) There are some instances where speed of getting information out is important, even if not all of the information is known. Reporting that the building collapsed quickly was responsible. Reporting that you know why the building collapsed, when you only have potential contributing factors, is not responsible.
$$ at least he had drawings,aerial view, good photos and video.
maybe a real expert can use that info to analyze better
 

RonJohn

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$$ at least he had drawings,aerial view, good photos and video.
maybe a real expert can use that info to analyze better
They will have a team of experts that review: Drawings, Aerial Photos, Photos, Videos, Core Samples, Metal Samples, Soil Samples, Soil Core Samples, Permitting Filings, Inspection Reports, etc. Those experts will create a report about what they believe actually caused the collapse. It won't be a YouTube personality, and it won't be within two weeks of the collapse. It will take a while, maybe a year or more. It will be a boring report that most people will have no interest in reading, they will only hear highlights on the news. That report will likely cause building inspections to change. That report will likely cause building codes to change. That report will likely cause construction inspections to change. The team working on that report will be doing so because it is their line of work and they are paid to figure this incident out. They won't be doing it to get view on YouTube, nor to get an audience for their news organization.
 

orientalnc

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My sister-in-law said this guy is well known in S Florida. He is a EE from FAU and worked for a while as an engineer, but now is a professional voice over artist. He has been posting these "engineering" videos for a while. My guess is that he has some training in structural basics, so this is not just some off the wall guy. That said, I would not want his word to be the basis for my legal decisions.
 

forensicbuzz

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These voiceover videos are produced by the plaintiff's lawyers as a means to put pressure on the potential defendants. Also, as you probably surmised by my font, this is what I do for a living. Most of what he said in the first 20 minutes was typical jibberish. I can't say whether I'm involved in this particular matter due to confidentiality issues, but let's just say there were some right things in his video and some wrong things in his video.
 

orientalnc

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These voiceover videos are produced by the plaintiff's lawyers as a means to put pressure on the potential defendants. Also, as you probably surmised by my font, this is what I do for a living. Most of what he said in the first 20 minutes was typical jibberish. I can't say whether I'm involved in this particular matter due to confidentiality issues, but let's just say there were some right things in his video and some wrong things in his video.
I thought the video from the hotel next door and the pool guy's comment about the standing water might be important clues as where the collapse actually began. I would like to hear whatever you can share. Thanks.
 

forensicbuzz

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I thought the video from the hotel next door and the pool guy's comment about the standing water might be important clues as where the collapse actually began. I would like to hear whatever you can share. Thanks.
There has been much discussion about the pool area, publicly and privately. Much like the bridge collapse in Minnesota, there is enough footage and information about what it looked like prior to accurately recreate the event. There are some very heavy hitters already on board. Several of the best forensic structural firms in the US have already been retained and several others have been approached by multiple parties.

Full disclosure, my background is materials, so corrosion and degradation would be my contribution if I were involved.
 

Technut1990

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Just throwing it out there but the pool stood despite degradation in the photos under the pool, I wouldn’t think they are structurally significant to the failure point. With that said I would think the condition of the pool pump room is more representative of the concrete at the actual failure point In the parking garage under the middle of the building ( if the video of the busted pipe is true ) Poor maintenance, neglect, contributing factors aside the failure wasn’t at the pool, given it’s still intact.
 

slugboy

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My sister-in-law said this guy is well known in S Florida. He is a EE from FAU and worked for a while as an engineer, but now is a professional voice over artist. He has been posting these "engineering" videos for a while. My guess is that he has some training in structural basics, so this is not just some off the wall guy. That said, I would not want his word to be the basis for my legal decisions.
The best things I learned from Engineering are “I know enough about ‘A’ in this situation to say something factual”, “I know enough about ‘B’ to know I’m not an expert”, and “I feel super-confident about ‘C’, but I can tell that’s all ignorance and maybe I should stay out of this one”. That took more than a couple of years after Tech to get there.

I see a lot of people, especially in data science, taking WAGS at subjects because they can produce a pretty chart. That’s just dipping your toe in the water, and not going for a real swim.

I worked as a draftsman while I was an undergrad. I learned pretty quickly that there could be important differences between the designs and the actual construction.

I wouldn’t take my DefBods class, an EE degree, and commercial design experience and apply it to a high-rise without a whole lot of caveats. I definitely wouldn’t be making a YouTube video like that.
 

forensicbuzz

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The best things I learned from Engineering are “I know enough about ‘A’ in this situation to say something factual”, “I know enough about ‘B’ to know I’m not an expert”, and “I feel super-confident about ‘C’, but I can tell that’s all ignorance and maybe I should stay out of this one”. That took more than a couple of years after Tech to get there.

I see a lot of people, especially in data science, taking WAGS at subjects because they can produce a pretty chart. That’s just dipping your toe in the water, and not going for a real swim.

I worked as a draftsman while I was an undergrad. I learned pretty quickly that there could be important differences between the designs and the actual construction.

I wouldn’t take my DefBods class, an EE degree, and commercial design experience and apply it to a high-rise without a whole lot of caveats. I definitely wouldn’t be making a YouTube video like that.
I'd be pretty certain someone else scripted that and he did the voice work.
 

orientalnc

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I'd be pretty certain someone else scripted that and he did the voice work.
This is quite possibly the case. That said, if he did the script or someone else did it, I don't have a concern. It's someone's hobby and lots of people are posting things on YouTube for which they are not qualified (in the normal sense of the word). I thought he raised some interesting points, but that is all.

I can see the concern professional engineers have for someone claiming to be a "forensic engineer" without any formal training or experience. I have the same feeling when people lecture me on economics based on seeing a clip on CNBC.
 

GT_EE78

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don't think they're on bedrock but don't know if a factor.
debris must have lots of things that need to be collected and tested to aid analysis.
how many years will this take?
thanks to that video i'm pretty darn confident that when i look at scene photo's i'll know
whether i'm looking north,south,east or west!
 
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