AE 87
Helluva Engineer
- Messages
- 13,016
IJ7, are you distinguishing between these two questions?
1) Do stars matter?
2) Does talent matter?
Those who are arguing that the answer to (1) is "no" still believe that the answer to (2) is "yes."
Star Debate/Ratings thread
- Thread starter IronJacket7
- Start date
IJ7, are you distinguishing between these two questions?
1) Do stars matter?
2) Does talent matter?
Those who are arguing that the answer to (1) is "no" still believe that the answer to (2) is "yes."
AE87, I really liked the last part of what you said. It's fun when the school I went to and root for lands a highly regarded guy, and it sucks when they miss on a blue chipper they were after. As a fan, it's ok for me to feel that way. But part of what separates us from coaches is that they're paid to look at a kid and figure out how best to make him fit into the system they want to use him in. Chris Reis is a GREAT example. A lot of coaches looked at him and didn't see anything they could use. Jon Tenuta looked at him and saw a lb/s hybrid who could potentially create havoc as a blitzer. He was right, and unrated Chris Reis has a Super Bowl ring.
I don't trust star rankings because of how arbitrary they are. I don't believe Chad Simmons or Kelly Quinlan or anyone else can reasonably look at tapes of two tailbacks and definitively say that one is the 6th best and one is the 9th best in America. Or even in a particular state. It's impossible for any one person or group of people to do that, even in the advanced technological age we live in today. Offer sheets I trust a little more, but I've heard more than one coach talk about kids who commit early, remain firm, and as a result don't get offers from other schools who simply move on. So while that is also a good indicator, even that is an inexact science.
The only opinion on high school kids I trust is the opinion of the college coach who's recruiting him. If Coach Johnson thinks Antonio Simmons will help this team win an ACC championship more than a kid with one more star next to his name, I absolutely trust Coach Johnson more than a recruiting service.
I don't trust star rankings because of how arbitrary they are. I don't believe Chad Simmons or Kelly Quinlan or anyone else can reasonably look at tapes of two tailbacks and definitively say that one is the 6th best and one is the 9th best in America. Or even in a particular state. It's impossible for any one person or group of people to do that, even in the advanced technological age we live in today. Offer sheets I trust a little more, but I've heard more than one coach talk about kids who commit early, remain firm, and as a result don't get offers from other schools who simply move on. So while that is also a good indicator, even that is an inexact science.
The only opinion on high school kids I trust is the opinion of the college coach who's recruiting him. If Coach Johnson thinks Antonio Simmons will help this team win an ACC championship more than a kid with one more star next to his name, I absolutely trust Coach Johnson more than a recruiting service.
That's a really good way of saying that. I look at that list and see a handful of guys who made a huge difference. I also see a lot of guys who dissappointed or underachieved...
Ibeeballin
Im a 3*
- Messages
- 6,046
Sheesh… I would hate to see what was said about me committing. lol.
Ibeeballin
Im a 3*
- Messages
- 6,046
And that never gets brought up for some odd reason. The talent depth was very spotty in the 07 class. Some could say that lack of depth led us to our 1st losing season in forever
Eric
Retired Co-Founder
- Messages
- 12,734
Size/height concern, worried about lack of offers, must be a reach if we are taking him this late, why did SC and Clemson not offer...that should sum it up.
I will add character concern for good measure lol.
Dj Donley, Willie White, Steven Threet, Clyde Yandell, Jason Peters. All names I remember being unbelievably excited about that never amounted to ANYTHING at Georgia Tech. Threet I'll give a pass, because he transferred before ever playing a down, but the rest of those guys were at best place holders/roster fillers during their time here. I'd absolutely take some of their more lightly rated counterparts over them.
Eric
Retired Co-Founder
- Messages
- 12,734
Boy was Donley a stud. Kid oozed talent. Wish he kept it all together.
Peters wasn't a 4* but he was a decent player for us.
Ibeeballin
Im a 3*
- Messages
- 6,046
Jason was rated higher than Derrick, i think
I enjoyed the discussion. Very enjoyable!
Eric
Retired Co-Founder
- Messages
- 12,734
Sorry to clarify I meant didn't perform like a 4*. But was a decent player.
AE 87
Helluva Engineer
- Messages
- 13,016
The true test of a player's value is how many players we recruit with the same last name.
IronJacket7
Helluva Engineer
- Messages
- 2,544
I will try to answer your question like this... 1 and 2 both matter.
The point I was trying to make is the last time we were relevant in college football is when our best recruiting class in recent school history garnered the field.
IronJacket7
Helluva Engineer
- Messages
- 2,544
I'm not advocating that stars mean everything. I'm only saying that stars mean something. I'm a firm believer that 2 star sleepers exist and so do 5 star flops. But when someone says stars don't matter or they don't mean anything... It's a very narrow minded comment imo.
IronJacket7
Helluva Engineer
- Messages
- 2,544
Star ratings in turn determine the final overall class rankings.
I believe that there is not that much difference in talent level when comparing a Top 10 class to a Top 20 class... A little, sure. But not a lot. But a Top 10 class versus a class say in the 30's 40's 50's yes there is a larger difference in talent. So do stars matter? Rating? Rankings? You tell me. From what I have looked at they definitely have an impact as a whole. Individually they recruiting services get it wrong probably 25% of the time and right 75% of the time. Sure you have sleepers and guys who don't get to go to camps and get evaluated. And yes I trust our coaches for evaluating who we recruit and never to go by a recruiting service to see who you go after. That is just nuts. But GT in averaging a class every year that lands somewhere between 30 and 50 in the final rankings. Yes this is comprised of how many you land so the numbers are skewed. But they are fairly telling as well.
National Champion over the last 8 years ---- Their overall class ranking by rivals the previous 4 years before winning the NC
2012 NC Alabama ---- 2012 Class #1 ---- 2011 Class #1 ---- 2010 Class #5 ---- 2009 Class #1
2011 NC Alabama ---- 2011 Class #1 ---- 2010 Class #5 ---- 2009 Class #1 ---- 2008 Class #1
2010 NC Auburn ---- 2010 Class #4 ---- 2009 Class #19 ---- 2008 Class #20 ---- 2007 Class #7
2009 NC Alabama ---- 2009 Class #1 ---- 2008 Class #1 ---- 2007 Class #7 ----2006 Class #11
2008 NC Florida ---- 2008 Class #3 ---- 2007 Class #1 ---- 2006 Class #2 ---- 2005 Class #15
2007 NC LSU ---- 2007 Class #4 ---- 2006 Class #7 ---- 2005 Class #22 ---- 2004 Class #2
2006 NC Florida ---- 2006 Class #2 ---- 2005 Class #15 ---- 2004 Class #10 ---- 2003 Class #2
2005 NC Texas ---- 2005 Class #20 ---- 2004 Class #18 ---- 2003 Class #15 ---- 2002 Class #1
I believe that there is not that much difference in talent level when comparing a Top 10 class to a Top 20 class... A little, sure. But not a lot. But a Top 10 class versus a class say in the 30's 40's 50's yes there is a larger difference in talent. So do stars matter? Rating? Rankings? You tell me. From what I have looked at they definitely have an impact as a whole. Individually they recruiting services get it wrong probably 25% of the time and right 75% of the time. Sure you have sleepers and guys who don't get to go to camps and get evaluated. And yes I trust our coaches for evaluating who we recruit and never to go by a recruiting service to see who you go after. That is just nuts. But GT in averaging a class every year that lands somewhere between 30 and 50 in the final rankings. Yes this is comprised of how many you land so the numbers are skewed. But they are fairly telling as well.
National Champion over the last 8 years ---- Their overall class ranking by rivals the previous 4 years before winning the NC
2012 NC Alabama ---- 2012 Class #1 ---- 2011 Class #1 ---- 2010 Class #5 ---- 2009 Class #1
2011 NC Alabama ---- 2011 Class #1 ---- 2010 Class #5 ---- 2009 Class #1 ---- 2008 Class #1
2010 NC Auburn ---- 2010 Class #4 ---- 2009 Class #19 ---- 2008 Class #20 ---- 2007 Class #7
2009 NC Alabama ---- 2009 Class #1 ---- 2008 Class #1 ---- 2007 Class #7 ----2006 Class #11
2008 NC Florida ---- 2008 Class #3 ---- 2007 Class #1 ---- 2006 Class #2 ---- 2005 Class #15
2007 NC LSU ---- 2007 Class #4 ---- 2006 Class #7 ---- 2005 Class #22 ---- 2004 Class #2
2006 NC Florida ---- 2006 Class #2 ---- 2005 Class #15 ---- 2004 Class #10 ---- 2003 Class #2
2005 NC Texas ---- 2005 Class #20 ---- 2004 Class #18 ---- 2003 Class #15 ---- 2002 Class #1
GTJason
Helluva Engineer
- Messages
- 1,567
I have no idea what this debate is about. We're all agreeing here. This year if we got DeShaun Watson committed, would we be looking at Mathew Jordan? Hell no. The problem here is some of you star obsessed people don't seem to realize is we try to go after these highly rated guys, they just show little interest back. Would it be more responsible to go after all high 4 and 5 star players who show no interest only to lose out to Alabama, Clemson, etc, or would it be responsible to talk to those 4 and 5 star players but really go after the high 3 star and low 4 star guys we could convince to come to GT? Of course the answer is the latter, otherwise you end up with a bunch of 2 star guys who are chomping at the bit for a D1 offer after wasting time on the instant impact guys.
So after cutting out the top tier guys- remember we've already gauged interest and if there's a shot we keep on them, if not we move on- we move down to the guys who are clearly D1 athletes but we're going to have to fight for them. This is where the coaches matter. Going back to the QB situation this year (and this is in no way a stab at Jordan - I'm excited about what he'll bring to the team) we had Malcom Parrish who we struck out on. Tried everything to get him. Then we had this group of Gillins, Jordan, and Zanders (probably missing some others.) They are all basically similar athletes with different skill sets. The coaches liked Jordan and they got him - beat out Nebraska and interest from Auburn btw so it wasn't like we were the only show in town.
Anyway all of this to say we're not only going after lower tier talent if that's what the argument is, we're trying on the highly rated guys and have gotten a few hits: Vad Lee, Justin Thomas, Francis Kallon to name a few - these are NSD wins not on the field wins yet. The important thing is we're getting better at it. An ESPN top 300 recruit couldn't wait for the world to know he wanted to attend the "University of Georgia Tech" so he put it on twitter for the world to see. That's awesome advertisement, the staff is doing a good job and indications are 2015 might just be another 2007 like class.
We absolutely will play better with better players, not even a debate. We are trying to get better players, again this is a fact. So again what is this thread trying to sell??? We'd win a MNC too with Bama's players, I get it. My question to you is when you were young or if you are young, which girl do you hit on at a party/event/bar? The hottest one you see or the most attractive one showing you interest who might hook up with/date you? This is GT's position, maybe we'll get a model at some point...
So after cutting out the top tier guys- remember we've already gauged interest and if there's a shot we keep on them, if not we move on- we move down to the guys who are clearly D1 athletes but we're going to have to fight for them. This is where the coaches matter. Going back to the QB situation this year (and this is in no way a stab at Jordan - I'm excited about what he'll bring to the team) we had Malcom Parrish who we struck out on. Tried everything to get him. Then we had this group of Gillins, Jordan, and Zanders (probably missing some others.) They are all basically similar athletes with different skill sets. The coaches liked Jordan and they got him - beat out Nebraska and interest from Auburn btw so it wasn't like we were the only show in town.
Anyway all of this to say we're not only going after lower tier talent if that's what the argument is, we're trying on the highly rated guys and have gotten a few hits: Vad Lee, Justin Thomas, Francis Kallon to name a few - these are NSD wins not on the field wins yet. The important thing is we're getting better at it. An ESPN top 300 recruit couldn't wait for the world to know he wanted to attend the "University of Georgia Tech" so he put it on twitter for the world to see. That's awesome advertisement, the staff is doing a good job and indications are 2015 might just be another 2007 like class.
We absolutely will play better with better players, not even a debate. We are trying to get better players, again this is a fact. So again what is this thread trying to sell??? We'd win a MNC too with Bama's players, I get it. My question to you is when you were young or if you are young, which girl do you hit on at a party/event/bar? The hottest one you see or the most attractive one showing you interest who might hook up with/date you? This is GT's position, maybe we'll get a model at some point...
I agree with you 100%. We do Gauge interest, and do offer those high stars right off the bat. It is just a coincidence that the star thing lines up just that way. And took the case going forward right to the T. Best reply by far. Even my own- rotflmao!
In addition to what I've already said, I also think there are times when a kid gets bumped up a star because of who he's committed to. Calvin Johnson would've been a concensus five star if he'd committed to u(sic)ga, and Chad Simmons' piccolo-playing *** knows it. That's another reason I don't trust star rankings. "Oh, this kid didn't commit to Alabama/FSU/Ohio State, he must not be any good."