So who leaves? Attrition.

[dtm1997]

With all the back and forth it's an EXTREMELY simple thread. We have a new coach. It's a miracle 20 haven't left already. He gave everyone a chance. Either you fit or you don't.

The axe is coming for those that don't. Deal with it. All the holier than thou **** can wait a few seasons(or at least one year).

Again
DW
JJ
ZM
Who's next?

I'm shocked that you found someone being sanctimonious on a GT message board. Even more shocking, the person being sanctimonious af accused me of being sanctimonious this past weekend.

I'm just aghast over the whole thing.

Beyond being aghast over the sanctimony, I agree with your post and also agree with those who call amateurism a crock of ****.

Amateurism is a total crock of ****.

 

[ATL1]

Ezzard

I thought he comes in the summer?

 

[vamosjackets]

The arguments in this thread are so hard to follow. I understand the ones who are on the side of integrity. I do not understand the ones who are now all in with the dark side of things. The ones on that dark side are making little sense with varying versions of this story.

This is my attempt at some sort of clarity:

Here is my biggest question in this ethical issue: Were the players offered the chance to remain at GT on scholarship but not remain on the team? Some people have claimed that this was an option (the 2nd of the three options). If this is the case, then there is no ethical issue at all, as long as we're not putting them on some fake medical 'ship when there's really nothing wrong. It seems to me that those who are arguing that we do all those shady things, always have, and always should, are disagreeing among themselves about whether that was the case. @Ibeeballin @bikeseat @ATL1 @Techster @Milwaukee

Can those of you on that side of the argument please come to an agreement on that issue and let us know the truth about that all important point?


I played under CCG. If the stuff SOME people are claiming we do (pay players/recruits, revoke scholarships for performance) happened, I was totally unaware. I do know that I saw what our best players drove, and it would not lead me to believe they were getting paid under the table. I also have every reason to believe that CCG was a man who valued integrity over winning from every significant personal experience I have from him.
I also believed this about CPJ ... and still do because the arguments and statements even from the two former players don't make good sense, and from the track record of their posts since the new regime came in, it's all been a one-sided aim. I am questioning this some now, but I am definitely not convinced.

Here's what's most amazingly sad and disgusting to me: how easily people jump the ethics and integrity ship. "A good name is BETTER than great riches." "What good is it for a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his soul?" I know I shouldn't be surprised, but I usually am. I will admit to naivete on my part. Our society is on the back end of the slow decline of losing its standard of truth. So, no surprise when the truth can become whatever you want it to be to justify the means to your desired ends.
If GT has become this and/or has truly been this way in the past, I will absolutely move my passion somewhere else. If GT is not taking away the player's scholarship (even if not allowing them to remain on the team), then please let me know so that I can remain a fan.

 

[RickStromFan]

Coaches can not “process” a player they don’t want around based on how many ships are out?

Jeezus H.

What it comes down to is: Everything PJ did - good. Same things done by other coaches - bad. The fanboy hypocrisy is kinda cute.

 

[vamosjackets]

Eh, I know some on here want to believe that GT is above a lot of things, but the reality of it is GT does the same things a lot of the factory schools do...we just don't do it to the extreme levels they do.

"Cut" players before their eligibility runs out? We do it, former SAs that have sat in front of coaches who gave them "the talk" attest to it.

"Pay" players? If you dig deep enough on this board, you'll find some very well informed posters have alluded to it...hint: look up posts on the 2007 class. I doubt we're paying tens of thousands, definitely not hundreds, but GT isn't as clean as many want to believe.

Taking in players and "getting them through" classes for sports? Quite a few of the "attrition" is because the staff got players as far as they could and SAs had no choice but to transfer to a JUCO or lower level school.

There's probably a LOT more going on than we'll ever know, or want to know. Being a fan of a school is a choice. Some of it isn't as clean as we'd like, but business is rarely clean. College sports is a business. If it doesn't sit well with you, choose the Ivy League...but they're not wholly clean either. How about High School sports? Same.

If you don't like that compromises are made to be successful, then maybe quit following sports altogether because even the lowest levels of sports (pee wee ball) has some elements that isn't clean.

Is there such as thing as right and wrong, as integrity? Do you care about it?

 

[ATL1]

The arguments in this thread are so hard to follow. I understand the ones who are on the side of integrity. I do not understand the ones who are now all in with the dark side of things. The ones on that dark side are making little sense with varying versions of this story.

This is my attempt at some sort of clarity:

Here is my biggest question in this ethical issue: Were the players offered the chance to remain at GT on scholarship but not remain on the team? Some people have claimed that this was an option (the 2nd of the three options). If this is the case, then there is no ethical issue at all, as long as we're not putting them on some fake medical 'ship when there's really nothing wrong. It seems to me that those who are arguing that we do all those shady things, always have, and always should, are disagreeing among themselves about whether that was the case. @Ibeeballin @bikeseat @ATL1 @Techster @Milwaukee

Can those of you on that side of the argument please come to an agreement on that issue and let us know the truth about that all important point?


I played under CCG. If the stuff SOME people are claiming we do (pay players/recruits, revoke scholarships for performance) happened, I was totally unaware. I do know that I saw what our best players drove, and it would not lead me to believe they were getting paid under the table. I also have every reason to believe that CCG was a man who valued integrity over winning from every significant personal experience I have from him.
I also believed this about CPJ ... and still do because the arguments and statements even from the two former players don't make good sense, and from the track record of their posts since the new regime came in, it's all been a one-sided aim. I am questioning this some now, but I am definitely not convinced.

Here's what's most amazingly sad and disgusting to me: how easily people jump the ethics and integrity ship. "A good name is BETTER than great riches." "What good is it for a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his soul?" I know I shouldn't be surprised, but I usually am. I will admit to naivete on my part. Our society is on the back end of the slow decline of losing its standard of truth. So, no surprise when the truth can become whatever you want it to be to justify the means to your desired ends.
If GT has become this and/or has truly been this way in the past, I will absolutely move my passion somewhere else. If GT is not taking away the player's scholarship (even if not allowing them to remain on the team), then please let me know so that I can remain a fan.

Yes, I’m sorry but I personally do think you have to be naive that GT is some oasis of virtue, while being investigated and sanctioned by the NCAA multiple times.

Anyway. @Ibeeballin per this article King is safe:

“It’s possible staff could do a deeper dive on the cornerbacks, where Tre Swilling emerged in the spring, but the other spot has been “kind of trial by fire a little bit,” Thacker said, as Jaylon King, early-enrollee Jordan Huff and Zamari Walton are coming the competitors.”

https://www.ajc.com/sports/college/...-data-analysis-begins/4fZjb1S6kn1ptazToBw3FK/

 

[vamosjackets]

Yes, I’m sorry but I personally do think you have to be naive that GT is some oasis of virtue, while being investigated and sanctioned by the NCAA multiple times.

I fully admit that is possible.

My question to you is, are you glad about that?

 

[ATL1]

Are you glad about that?

No, but I’m not acting as if GT is some beacon separate from the masses. The fact that you make this claim when you played while the team was under sanctions is a serious, “what?” for me. Lastly, I don’t see much that’s unethical. Teams cut players, and that’s happened from little league to the pros.

 

[Animal02]

No, but I’m not acting as if GT is some beacon separate from the masses. The fact that you make this claim when you played while the team was under sanctions is a serious, “what?” for me. Lastly, I don’t see much that’s unethical. Teams cut players, and that’s happened from little league to the pros.

It is asinine to try to compare HS or the pros to the situation in the NCAA....but not surprising to see it come from the win at all cost crowd.

 

[vamosjackets]

This seems like a prime opportunity for some investigative journalism. Ken Seguira, if you read this board/thread, this would be a story of great interest. How do the transfers really work at GT and elsewhere? What actual ultimatums are laid down by the coaches at GT and others in the post-Spring player meetings? Seems like it would be a pretty easy and straightforward story to do. Just interview a decent-sized sample of players who transferred out of various schools. Interview a few coaches to get their take also. Get to the bottom of it; get the truth.

 

[ATL1]

It is asinine to try to compare HS or the pros to the situation in the NCAA....but not surprising to see it come from the win at all cost crowd.

Let me be clear. I don’t give a damn what you think. You’ve been griping on these boards since December about one issue after the other concerning the new regime. Now that’s ASSinine.

 

[Ibeeballin]

47 players in 4 years leave

Nothing

First transfer after spring practice

“Where is the integrity!!! Look he’s processing players already!!! Let me write an email to the AA right this minute!!!”

 

[vamosjackets]

No, but I’m not acting as if GT is some beacon separate from the masses. The fact that you make this claim when you played while the team was under sanctions is a serious, “what?” for me. Lastly, I don’t see much that’s unethical. Teams cut players, and that’s happened from little league to the pros.

It depends on what "cut" means - which goes back to my main question a few posts ago. The difference between cutting in little league and high school is that it doesn't affect that young person's life and they were never lied to. It doesn't cost them their degree. At GT if they get cut with no way to pay for their scholarship, that changes their whole life direction. And, this is what they were sold.

Also, it's now also been thrown out in this thread that we also do everything else that factories do, including paying under the table. This is called lying and cheating. Those are in my big 10 of ethics.

I can understand your "what" - that's a good question. The sanctions we were under when I played were from GOL's time - players were directed to take classes that would keep them eligible but not help them progress toward their degrees. And, if that was the case, we deserved our sanctions. I am not a GO'L fan for that reason - my impression of him is not that of a man of integrity (see resume-gate). That was mostly before my time, so my connection to GT athletics is through the lense of the CCG regime, and CCG was a man of character that I greatly admire. I could tell you some stories that mean a lot to me about his character. And, for that reason I was and always will be a CCG fan. And, this is what set a fire in me for GT athletics. Everything I saw was that we were different than our opponents. For one, our guys had to actually leave the locker room after practice to go study to take real tests. And, we had real degrees for them that would actually benefit their lives rather than using them and giving them nothing in return. This was while a very good high school buddy of mine went to Clemson and was steered by the football coaches away from his major in something math-related (he was a capable enough student) to field-turf management which was worthless to him in the end. So, yes, my fandom was built on us being the good guys. I pull for the Falcons and Braves, don't watch them often, but when I catch them on, or when they make the playoffs, I'll cheer for them - so maybe I'm sort of a fan of those teams. But, it's different than what I am with GT. I am more than a fan of GT. I am a believer in GT. And, that might be ending.
For another thing, I know that there could always be some fringe person (a fan or a backroom administrator) who goes rogue and does something shady. For me, it's more about the leadership. Are the leaders people of character who lead with integrity and goodness, positively impacting the people around them in those ways?

 

[Animal02]

It depends on what "cut" means - which goes back to my main question a few posts ago. Also, it's now also been thrown out in this thread that we also do everything else that factories do, including paying under the table. This is called lying and cheating. Those are in my big 10 of ethics.

I can understand your "what" - that's a good question. The sanctions we were under when I played were from GOL's time - players were directed to take classes that would keep them eligible but not help them progress toward their degrees. And, if that was the case, we deserved our sanctions. I am not a GO'L fan for that reason - my impression of him is not that of a man of integrity (see resume-gate). That was mostly before my time, so my connection to GT athletics is through the lense of the CCG regime, and CCG was a man of character that I greatly admire. I could tell you some stories that mean a lot to me about his character. And, for that reason I was and always will be a CCG fan. And, this is what set a fire in me for GT athletics. Everything I saw was that we were different than our opponents. For one, our guys had to actually leave the locker room after practice to go study to take real tests. And, we had real degrees for them that would actually benefit their lives rather than using them and giving them nothing in return. This was while a very good high school buddy of mine went to Clemson and was steered by the football coaches away from his major in something math-related (he was a capable enough student) to field-turf management which was worthless to him in the end. So, yes, my fandom was built on us being the good guys. I pull for the Falcons and Braves, don't watch them often, but when I catch them on, or when they make the playoffs, I'll cheer for them - so maybe I'm sort of a fan of those teams. But, it's different than what I am with GT. I am more than a fan of GT. I am a believer in GT. And, that might be ending.
For another thing, I know that there could always be some fringe person (a fan or a backroom administrator) who goes rogue and does something shady. For me, it's more about the leadership. Are the leaders people of character who lead with integrity and goodness, positively impacting the people around them in those ways?

One of the biggest turn offs for me when I went through the recruiting process was coaches (D1) telling me to change my desired major in order to play ball.

 

[vamosjackets]

47 players in 4 years leave

Nothing

First transfer after spring practice

“Where is the integrity!!! Look he’s processing players already!!! Let me write an email to the AA right this minute!!!”

It's very important to get the argument right to have any chance at understanding and resolution. It's not about how many players leave, it's about why the players leave. If 47 players left because it was their choice due to their own priority of playing time, there is no issue there. Or, if 47 players leave because they were lazy or had behavior issues or whatever, there no issue there. However, if any player(s) leave for the sole reason that they weren't as good at football as the coach wanted and thus the coach revoked their scholarship so that they couldn't afford to pay for the degree they went to school to get, that is a big issue. Speaking for myself, I just want to know the truth whichever way it goes.

 

[bobongo]

Yes, I’m sorry but I personally do think you have to be naive that GT is some oasis of virtue, while being investigated and sanctioned by the NCAA multiple times.

I have to say my eyes have been opened a bit, however I have to point out that the what the NCAA does or doesn't do isn't necessarily a good yardstick on virtue. Look at what they did to us because O'Leary gave a down on his luck player a loan, or compare the penalty for our honest mistake, self-reported grade snafu to UNC's fraudulent classes and phony grades, for which the NCAA found an excuse to give no penalty at all.

You can double park in the NCAA and get the book thrown at you while muggers run loose.

 

[bobongo]

One of the biggest turn offs for me when I went through the recruiting process was coaches (D1) telling me to change my desired major in order to play ball.

Well that's interesting. What did they want you to change your major from and to?

 

[Techster]

Is there such as thing as right and wrong, as integrity? Do you care about it?

There's 2 arguments here and you seem to have mixed them together:

1. Is it right for schools to pull scholarships of SAs while they still have eligibility and said athlete is doing the things asked of them even if they don't turn out to be the players the coaches thought when they're recruited?
ABSOLUTELY NOT. Never have I said GT should pull scholarships if kids don't perform on the field, and if you look at my posting history, I have repeatedly stated SAs should be allowed to finish out their degree requirements once they sign with a school. Pulling scholarships before kids are done with school is shameful. I hope I didn't mince words and I'm clear where I stand there.

2. Does GT "process" kids and practice other parts of the unsavory side of college athletics?
Whether you or I like it or not, GT is doing what they need to do to compete. Maybe it's not to the level of 'Bama or Ohio State or whatever large factory school, but there is plenty out there pointing to GT not being as clean as we'd all want. Processing SAs? Refer to the former SAs who have shared their experience with past GT coaches. Pay to play? If you look hard enough, there are stories that suggest some of this is going on. Pushing kids along that don't have any business at GT just because they can do things with a football or basketball? You have to be naive to think we're only recruiting scholars...there's a reason 90+% of our SAs are non-engineering majors.

Just because I pointed out certain things that may burst some bubbles about GT does not mean I can't believe in what's right and what's not right. The two are not mutually exclusive.

You're trying to hold an institution to a standard (yours?) that belongs to an organization (NCAA) that's looking the other way as long as their sacred cash cows (see: blue bloods/factory schools) can still pump $$$$ out of their udders. Let's not pretend to hold sacred the "student athlete" when the body governing the schools, and the schools themselves have made it clear that the "athlete" part is more important to them than the "student" part. You don't have to look any further than what's going on with college basketball currently. Let's also not put the SA/school relationship on a pedestal. Both sides of the relationship is just a means to an end. The whole F'ing thing is a charade, and we're the suckers.

Do I care? ABSO****INGLUTELY. Does integrity matter? ABSO****INGLUTELY.

The reality is, we're arguing over something that matters MUCH less to them (NCAA, member/schools) than it does to us. What are the choice here? We can hold our noses up, quit supporting our school, quit watching college sports, and go on with our lives because in some way it will make us feel better about meeting our moral code? Are you willing to pay that price? If you're not, then I suggest you get off your soapbox because you're supporting the very practices that you deem morally questionable.

 

[Animal02]

Well that's interesting. What did they want you to change your major from and to?

Not architecture .
It was more about the attitude.....that I should put football first over what I wanted to do with my life. One or two did suggest alternate routes to accomplish my goal.....and it was those schools I considered a bit more. Ultimately, I came to the conclusion not to play....and ended up with a Tech degree.....which I still consider a great choice.

 

[iceeater1969]

The arguments in this thread are so hard to follow. I understand the ones who are on the side of integrity. I do not understand the ones who are now all in with the dark side of things. The ones on that dark side are making little sense with varying versions of this story.

This is my attempt at some sort of clarity:

Here is my biggest question in this ethical issue: Were the players offered the chance to remain at GT on scholarship but not remain on the team? Some people have claimed that this was an option (the 2nd of the three options). If this is the case, then there is no ethical issue at all, as long as we're not putting them on some fake medical 'ship when there's really nothing wrong. It seems to me that those who are arguing that we do all those shady things, always have, and always should, are disagreeing among themselves about whether that was the case. @Ibeeballin @bikeseat @ATL1 @Techster @Milwaukee

Can those of you on that side of the argument please come to an agreement on that issue and let us know the truth about that all important point?


I played under CCG. If the stuff SOME people are claiming we do (pay players/recruits, revoke scholarships for performance) happened, I was totally unaware. I do know that I saw what our best players drove, and it would not lead me to believe they were getting paid under the table. I also have every reason to believe that CCG was a man who valued integrity over winning from every significant personal experience I have from him.
I also believed this about CPJ ... and still do because the arguments and statements even from the two former players don't make good sense, and from the track record of their posts since the new regime came in, it's all been a one-sided aim. I am questioning this some now, but I am definitely not convinced.

Here's what's most amazingly sad and disgusting to me: how easily people jump the ethics and integrity ship. "A good name is BETTER than great riches." "What good is it for a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his soul?" I know I shouldn't be surprised, but I usually am. I will admit to naivete on my part. Our society is on the back end of the slow decline of losing its standard of truth. So, no surprise when the truth can become whatever you want it to be to justify the means to your desired ends.
If GT has become this and/or has truly been this way in the past, I will absolutely move my passion somewhere else. If GT is not taking away the player's scholarship (even if not allowing them to remain on the team), then please let me know so that I can remain a fan.

I cannot look into the heart and interity cgc , cpj, or ccg gailey as conduct evaluations with the ou r players.

Go ahead and assume the negative on motive and methods you cant possibly know.

One can look at ccg career and see he has had nearly 20 different coaching jobs. Want to say he is a bad coach - he keeps moving on and cant hold a steady job . Want to say he is a good coach , then look at same 20 jobs say he kept getting hired.

I wiuld assume that none of our coaches lie to players about their performance level. If a player just cant cyt it in the field and he truly wants a gt degree, of course he should get to stay if he can help in practice and make prompt academic progress. Shame on the coaches that recruited him. Other players when told not cutting it , they will hit the exit especially if they have grade issues.


Now to some numbers.
Attrition under galley - players leaving early while playing for him. My sources says he had about 6 per year except when he had 15 (Right After he arrived) and 10 leave. His average was about 9 per year.

I have no idea if the players were properly counseled and refuse to engage in pontificating and chest puffing

( I know that academic restrictions and suppoert increased undrr galley's time. He deserves credit for being apart of the ncaa grad rate increase of football and basketball as it was very low when he started.)

After cgc s first year i hope we have 6 or less leave .