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Religion and Politics cont

Discussion in 'The Swarm Lounge' started by Northeast Stinger, Oct 28, 2016.

  1. ilovetheoption

    ilovetheoption Helluva Engineer

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    I mean, MLK was that kind of leader, no? If we can only draw wisdom from people that we agree with 100%, that's a recipe for a pretty ignorant life.

    The wisdom of Jesus that I take value from is no more or less wise because it came from a man of faith, just as the wisdom I take from, say, William George Jordan is no more or less wise because he was a white dude.

    I can hold my own opinion about the strengths and weaknesses of organized labor, while still admiring Julio Cesar Chavez.
     
    Milwaukee likes this.
  2. AE 87

    AE 87 Helluva Engineer

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    I appreciate this response.

    Let me begin with your last sentence. If you admire Chavez without embracing his attitudes and approaches to organizing labor, then it is on the basis of values which have arisen elsewhere. I have no problem with that. However, I don't think you would be right to say that you are following his example, or living like him, if you are really following principles or examples which have arisen elsewhere.

    So, I guess that this is where I might draw the line differently from you. I think that if you express your appreciation for Chavez or Jesus because it seems to you that they in some respects reflected your values, then I've got no problem with that. However, when you take the next step to discuss living like them or following their example, then that's a step too far, imo, and especially if you then speak of their wisdom. For, it seems to me that you have reduced them to the values you appreciate rather than the values that they profess for themselves.

    In other words, it seems to me, if I understand correctly:
    Going back to your first paragraph, you are not actually drawing wisdom from them when you reduce their insights to that with which you agree (on the basis of some other source). That's the move that I consider dishonest, saying you are drawing wisdom from, or following the example of, someone when you are in fact using another standard by which you judge what you accept from that person. You are not drawing wisdom from them or following their example, but praising them for agreeing in parts with your wisdom and the example you wish to set. You are talking about being like them, but in fact, they are highlighted for being like you, or at least how you would like to be.​

    Admittedly, I may have misunderstood you, but at least, I hope, this clarifies my reaction.
     
  3. ilovetheoption

    ilovetheoption Helluva Engineer

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    So, I dont think I ever said anything about wanting to live or be like him. I said people like him are good for the world. I still feel that way. People of faith who follow a lifestyle of peace and love are a net positive for the world. So are engineers. That doesn't necessarily mean I want to be one.

    Further, I am absolutely drawing wisdom from Jesus when I read offering the other cheek to be slapped. Its a way to think about a mindset I believe in that I wouldnt have come up on my own.

    And, yeah, your last sentence is exactly correct. I am lauding them for having qualities that I wish I had more of in myself. I simply don't see how that means I have to want every single quality of theirs for myself.
     
  4. AE 87

    AE 87 Helluva Engineer

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    Cool. I get you now more clearly.

    At this point, it may be a quibble, but fwiw, if you accept "Turn the other cheek" but not "Repent because God's kingdom is near," then it seems to me still that Jesus is not the source of the wisdom. Rather, the source of the wisdom lies in the source for whatever led you to accept the one and reject the other.

    In my experience, it is our failure (all of us) to too often not reflect at this level on the sources of our beliefs and values that leads to rancor in religious and political discussion.
     
  5. Whiskey_Clear

    Whiskey_Clear Banned

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    There is much wisdom in the Bible. Not only from the apostles quotes of and stories regarding Jesus. But throughout. I enjoy delving into psalms. Never fail to find wisdom there. And yet David himself, with all of that expressed wisdom, and favor of God upon him, still fell to his personal weaknesses later in life thus losing the favor of God. Only one has ever led a perfect life.
     
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  6. ilovetheoption

    ilovetheoption Helluva Engineer

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    I am far from flawless, so it is entirely possible I have not sufficiently reflected. That said, I will push back; my brother has said many idiotic things in his life, but also one very smart thing, that I have taken with me, and it has made my life better. Now, maybe he's not the original source of the wisdom, but he's the first person I heard it from, and he's the one who made the concept clear in my mind.

    Does that mean the wisdom didn't come from him? I reject other stuff he says.

    I think perhaps we're dealing with semantics at this point.
     
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  7. AE 87

    AE 87 Helluva Engineer

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    Oh, yes. I said upfront that it was perhaps a quibble. Also, your reference to your brother confirms that I had understood what you were saying.

    I was trying to suggest that there's a different way at looking at it, but I suspect that I won't be able to make it clear enough.
     
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  8. ilovetheoption

    ilovetheoption Helluva Engineer

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    I genuinely appreciate your effort, though
     
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  9. FredJacket

    FredJacket Helluva Engineer

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    Two things:
    1) I really appreciate the "dialogue" between @ilovetheoption (GO HOOS!) and @AE 87. Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts in a positive way.
    2) The 'bolded' sentence above is EXCELLENT. So SO true!
    Peace
     
    91Wreck, Milwaukee, bwelbo and 3 others like this.

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