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Religion and Politics cont

Discussion in 'The Swarm Lounge' started by Northeast Stinger, Oct 28, 2016.

  1. bwelbo

    bwelbo Helluva Engineer

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    My favorite part of that panel was when they started discussing, well if we think that this is all just a simulation, then we must also believe that the simulation of this simulation could just be a simulation and on and on. It really shows you sometimes that people that Think they are the smartest in the entire world lack an amazing amount of basic common sense.
     
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  2. Eastman

    Eastman Helluva Engineer

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    Didn't know that dialogues like this happened here. After many years as an atheist (really more of an anti-Christian since I though they were all ignorant) I began to study world views from an evidence standpoint and to my surprise ultimately became a Christian. Although formerly an evolutionist, I am certainly in the intelligent design camp and have read more than 70 books on the subject. In my experience, humans are usually not really open to objective assessment on the subject and that goes for both sides. None of us wants to believe that a core belief is wrong. I certainly did not want to believe that my not so bright sister was correct or become like my friend Denny who my friends and I made fun of after he became a Christian.
    In the hundreds of discussions I have had typically evolutionists have read very few ( usually none) books disagreeing with evolution and really addressed their arguments. Any knowledge of usually ID comes from what evolutionists have said about it and any argument against ID is accepted as proof that ID is false even though it is typically nothing more than a theory. They are also typically unaware or dismissive of ID responses to those arguments without providing proof. Has anyone watched the Programming of Life video on YouTube? I would think y'all would like it. The author has Phd's in both chemistry and computer science. I would love to hear a rebuttal of it.
     
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  3. AE 87

    AE 87 Helluva Engineer

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    I think your experience is typical. Many who accept the neoDarwinian evolution story don't consider the evidence.

    Take @potatohead as an example. When asked how people from a distance know Mt Rushmore was the work of an intelligence rather than natural causes, he cited written records and type of erosion (w/o explanation). Most would respond, "It looks just like four presidents!"

    You are not alone in yielding to the data on God, and if God, then Christianity. However, that last step is beyond the Religion and Politics of this thread imo.
     
  4. BuzzStone

    BuzzStone Helluva Engineer

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    Your proving my point. I can pull up video of any number of people saying something they don't mean out of context. I will discuss with him personally on june 12th and get back to you. What your not understanding is he is talking about ideas, science, technology. What neil "believes" is irrelevant to him (and everyone else) 99% of the time. He is a true scientist and thrives on information. I have watched the entire Isaac Asimov debate months ago so not going to sit though it this morning. The second video is an interesting video on how far we have come and in theory how far we will go.

    And whiskey your ignorance on the infinite is impressive.
     
  5. Whiskey_Clear

    Whiskey_Clear Banned

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    @BuzzStone

    I find it ironic you believe a chimp could or would write an act of Shakespeare, with regard to the infinity debate, without actually seeing physical evidence of this possibility.

    And yet you are incredibly dogmatic in your disbelief of, and vitriolic disdain for, the belief in intelligent design.....because you have not seen what you regard as physical evidence of this possibility. :rolleyes:
     
  6. Eastman

    Eastman Helluva Engineer

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    Agreed, the last step is a matter of the will. Towards the end of my journy I became desperate to find evidence against God because I new that if God existed it would change my whole belief system, social group etc., and would entail eating a lot of crow.
     
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  7. bwelbo

    bwelbo Helluva Engineer

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    Buzz, I didn't take a damned thing out of context. I said exactly what he said. And I even took it a step further saying something he didn't, but just to be clear - that he doesn't believe in God. He just phrased it that he thinks we're in a simulation run by someone else. So just think about it. He scoffs at the thought of an imaginary man in the sky with supernatural powers able to create the earth. But, he thinks a non-God with no supernatural powers IS able to create the earth. Now think about what leap of faith and what idiocy it takes to think that way. So yea, go ask him what he said. Doesn't matter. You have the entire 2 hours on YouTube to see the full context. I invite you to. I said what he said. So keep calling me a liar. Its bad form, especially when so easily disproven.
     
  8. bwelbo

    bwelbo Helluva Engineer

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    I look at it this way. Sometimes folks will ask me, do I really believe there is a God? Honestly I don't know. I won't ever be able to know. But there is a massive ton of historical evidence about Jesus. What he did, the miracles he performed, how he lived. I have never read or heard of a single thing Jesus ever taught that I disagreed with. So regardless if ultimately there is a God or not, I see no downside whatsoever to trying to live as Jesus did.
     
  9. Whiskey_Clear

    Whiskey_Clear Banned

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    @Eastman

    My experience was a bit similar but more internal, didn't have social pressure or prejudice influencing me much. It was and still is an ongoing process for me.

    For example, even after converting I looked at people's expression of their own faith with some disdain. For some reason it seemed very pretentious to me to see others seemingly needing to express their own beliefs with bumper stickers, fish signs, etc on the rear of their cars. Thankfully I've grown in wisdom in a small measure since then. It continues to be a process however as I attempt, with my many flaws and vices, to live up to the ideals of Christ.
     
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  10. Eastman

    Eastman Helluva Engineer

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    Regarding chimps writing Shakespeare etc. the math has been done and even if only Shannon information is considered, it just won't happen. Often these analogies are stated without working them out. For example, Richard Dawkins has written that long-lived aliens (100 million years) playing bridge would not be surprised (saying "they would scarcely write home about it") to see an occasional perfect bridge hand. Dr.Spetner in "Not by Chance" ( a good book in this area) worked out the math assuming the aliens played 100 bridge hands a day for 100,million years and showed that such an alien would only have about 1 chance in a quadrillion of seeing a perfect bridge hand in their lifetime and he only used Shannon information. Of course a perfect bridge hand is child's play compared with the complexity found in life.

    If anyone playing poker for example, just twice in one night, lost to someone who had a royal flush, they would think that cheating is going on (i.e. intelligence is being used to manipulate the outcome). We see a huge number of vastly more improbable configurations in just a single cell. That tells me that there is a massive intellect behind it the cells design.

    Gotta get some work done..
     
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  11. Eastman

    Eastman Helluva Engineer

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    I certainly understand that. While we are different in that I desperately wanted to disprove Christianity, after becoming a Christian I was and still am disturbed my many who also proclaim to be Christians. Many seem to call themselves Christians because of what they believe they will gain in this world from doing so. Instead of dying to self, they live for self. Certainly I struggle with that but I do fight against it (sometimes :)) instead of embracing it.
     
  12. ilovetheoption

    ilovetheoption Helluva Engineer

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    I'm not a christian, but I don't have any qualms with this. Actually, I'm not sure there IS a massive ton of historical evidence about Jesus, and I STILL don't have any qualms with this.

    If Jesus was a real guy, and acted the way the bible describes him, then he was a fantastic dude, and the world was better for his life, religion aside. Living like that is good for the world.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2017
  13. ilovetheoption

    ilovetheoption Helluva Engineer

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  14. AE 87

    AE 87 Helluva Engineer

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    @bwelbo @ilovetheoption

    The central teaching of Jesus was that with him the Kingdom of God was at hand, so folk should repent. It's hard to be for Jesus and be agnostic about the God of Israel.

    The wiki is right on the historicity of Jesus but its take on the gospels reflect a naturalist bias.
     
  15. ilovetheoption

    ilovetheoption Helluva Engineer

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    I don't know, dude. I've read a lot of Jesus quotes about loving one's neighbor, and giving to the poor, and a bunch of other good messages. I'm on board with that, even if I'm agnostic about the GoI :)
     
  16. AE 87

    AE 87 Helluva Engineer

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    The Love your neighbor quote from Jesus is what he calls the second great commandment. The first is Love God with your whole person.

    Taking the second out of context is not actually hearing and respecting Jesus.
     
  17. ilovetheoption

    ilovetheoption Helluva Engineer

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    I'm ok with that, too. The good part about not being a member of a religion is that you can take what you like, and disregard the rest :)
     
  18. AE 87

    AE 87 Helluva Engineer

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    No worries.

    Fwiw, I think it's dishonest to say you respect Jesus when you knowingly take him out of context.

    If I were to take you out of context to suggest you agree with me, would you take it as a compliment?
     
  19. ilovetheoption

    ilovetheoption Helluva Engineer

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    Thats perfectly fair. I should probably restate and say that if he lived the way Ive understood him to live, which is as a moral, kind, honest person who happened to have a religious bent, then Im on board. If thats not how he really lived, then I withhold the right to change my opinion.
     
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  20. AE 87

    AE 87 Helluva Engineer

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    Of course, Jesus lived a moral etc life. But that was because of his view of God.

    Imagine if a racist were to speak approvingly of MLK Jr as the leader of a movement for social change and as a public speaker. Then he said, "I've understood him to be a sincere advocate for a better world and an authentic speaker for change who happened to think the races are equal. "If I'm wrong about MLK Jr being that sort of leader, I'll reassess."

    Do you see what I mean?
     
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