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Our society is in shambles

Discussion in 'The Swarm Lounge' started by Milwaukee, Jul 30, 2018.

  1. A Love Supreme

    A Love Supreme Helluva Engineer

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    This incivility, personal attacks, and crazy rhetoric started in Obama's first run for president. I guess you seem to forget that when he was running, people on the right were calling him a Muslim and saying he attended a terrorist school as a kid. And of course the biggest fake news of all was that Obama was not born in this country. This lie was made famous by the originator of fake news, Donald Trump. Of course Fox News and the right wing media had no problem continuing to spread these lies and conspiracy theories. I'm sure there are a great number of Republicans still to this day believe Obama wasn't born here. Are you one of those people?

    Another contributor to this hostile political environment is on Obama's inauguration night 2009, Newt Gringrich, Frank Luntz and a group of Republicans from the House and the Senate got together and promised to filibuster and obstruct any and all legislation supported by President Obama. Even legislation that Republicans normally support. Pete Sessions, who was at that meeting, later said in interviews that Republicans needed insurgency tactics like the Taliban. He said Republican "need to get over the idea that they’re participating in legislation and ought to start thinking of themselves as an insurgency instead.” Another quote from him:
    "Insurgency, we understand perhaps a little bit more because of the Taliban. And that is that they went about systematically understanding how to disrupt and change a person's entire processes. And these Taliban -- [is] an example of how you go about to change a person from their messaging to their operations to their frontline message. And we need to understand that insurgency may be required when the other side, the House leadership, does not follow the same commands, which we entered the game with."
    Here we have a Republican elected official talking about modeling themselves after the Taliban. If a Democrat said anything like this, there would be outrage from the right. And I'm sure you would be the first one on here to criticize them.
    I guess you also forgot people called Obama a racist. Glenn Beck on Fox News said Obama was a racist. And his boss at the time Rupert Murdoch agreed with him.
    You probably forgot throughout Obama's presidency that people on the right kept saying over and over again that he was going to take your guns. Thats a lie. Why the fear mongering and lies? Were you one of those people that thought the government was going to take your guns?

    Then of course there was the despicable "death panels" lie in 2009 from the right wing and made famous by Sarah Palin. Of course people on Fox News and Republicans had no problem spreading that lie. Was this balance news coverage you want?
    All of these lies and conspiracy theories from the right have contributed to today's hostile political environment. You probably don't believe it because you are too far gone in your right wing bubble to realize it.
     
  2. MWBATL

    MWBATL Helluva Engineer

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    Actually, I mostly agree with these comments. I think Fox News actually pioneered the current media model of focusing on the negative and the extreme to generate and maintain a loyal viewership. The other cable networks have now decided to follow that model on steroids on the left in MSNBC and CNN. So, if your argument has descended into a 5th grade "yes, but he started this first" like two kids wrestling on the playground when the teacher intervenes, well, then that tells us where we're at, doesn't it?

    I also think some (many?) of the things said during the Obama years were over the top. Things like the 'he wasn't born' here claim always struck me as off base (and beside the point, imho). I never paid much attention to them and I'm surprised you did.

    The Republican Resistance did indeed start right away, but not for any nefarious reasons. Republicans knew what Obama had campaigned on and knew they would have to try to fight to oppose those policy initiatives (like Health Care) and put together a strategy on how to do so. The difference is they did not attack the institution with a campaign of Not My President" the way the left did. That was offensive and damaging to our democratic institutions, but apparently, it's OK if the left does it. The Republicans merely set out to be a party in opposition. The use of the Taliban as an example by one lawmaker does not offend me...he obviously was NOT referring to violence.

    We could go point by point back and forth but a couple of things remain true.....
    (1) I continue to argue that the crazed mail bomber was NOT Trump's fault and news organizations are wrong to make that partisan claim
    (2) If Obama had 94% negative coverage he would have freaked out.
    (3) Republicans did NOT ratchet up physical confrontations they way Progressives have with restaurant ambushes, elevator attacks, uncivil behavior in the halls of Congress etc. Perhaps you have forgotten how civil the Republican protests were compared to today's activity

    As it was, the Obama administration was so freaked out about media coverage they had to lie about ObamaCare (the infamous "if he liked my doctor you can keep your doctor"), Benghazi, and more. Goodness knows what they would have done with 94% negative media coverage, but I am quite sure they would have hit back. You must recall Obama calling Republicans names worse than he EVER used in describing ISIS. Biden suggesting Republicans wanted to take us back to the days of slavery, etc.

    Bottom line remains.....Trump need not apologize until the media and their henchmen in the former Obama administration (Brennan, Acosta, Clapper, John Kirby, Jim Sciutto all work for CNN now, et al) apologize also. The criticism that stated that BOTH sides need to tone down their rhetoric makes sense. The criticism that singles out Trump alone is merely partisan.
     
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  3. Technut1990

    Technut1990 Helluva Engineer

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    Yes all of that happened and ONE NEWS OUTLET covered it from that perspective, ONE .

    Today we have EVERY OTHER ONE calling Trump everything THEY can advocating like they are reporting news.

    They aren’t. I’m glad to see that you acknowledge it’s fake news despite your thought on whose to blame for its initial use. Very rarely is fake news 100% fake. The latest round of fake news is that Kemp was personally responsible for preventing black people from voting. He was blamed for closing polling places in South Ga although it was the county who was doing it in response to ADA compliance issues. Kemp is personally blamed for the match requirements that THE STATE LEGISLATURE INACTED not Kemp. Finally when the judge ruled that law legal, all news outlets -even Fox reported that it was a blow to Kemp. The fact is that Republicans won on the issue. The ruling says that the vote will count BUT that the citizen must be allowed to explain or correct the registration. So it seems to me that the voter will have to prove citizenship if the state calls on them to fix the registration.

    Fake news is also true in name. Again Fox did this stuff but they are ONE network. NBC intitially reported on the blockbuster news topic of Trumps ice cream hoarding and how he had two scoops while guests were only given one, that stupid story doesn’t even qualify as news, it isn’t even fake yet it was “reported” and even picked up by other outlets.

    Trump is Trump and like most politicians he sold us lies to get elected but those lies which democrats live off of are not unusual in politics both sides deploy “messaging” when they run. Dog whistles are the norm in politics on both sides. I agree that Mitch McConnell committed to a terrible plan by vowing to oppose everything Obama did - terrible politics resulted. The name calling goes both ways also. I’m so sick of being the “white male” who votes republican. It’s a dog whistle in and of itself, used by liberals to demean and undermine people who support conservative ideals. Libs have had no issue with labeling, it has been a tactic for them for 40 years but now name calling is offensive all of a sudden. A judgement in Civility from the side that invented violent rallies in the streets, all inclusive blame and racial politics is laughable.

    Liberals have tried, in each election to scare certain groups. Initially it was the elderly, it’s always been African Americans, it turned to homosexuals and then to women, the bad guy alleadedly threatening all of them has always been the white conservative male. This is the problem with politics not Trump. Trump is the result of this country’s politics, it’s getting very radical.

    When Don Lemon can go on CNN and compare The American White Male to terrorist and question why we can walk free without travel bans AS HE IS DATING A WHITE MALE we have reached the point of no return. He is an example of the blind rhetoric, either he forgot that he is sleeping with a white male or he so disrespects his partner that he can publically say that without regard to the fact his partner is exactly who he demeans with his all inclusive BS.

    The bigger problem is that hidden in all the BS are real political issues and it’s those issues that lock us all to our politics. Immigration isn’t a code word it’s an issue to address just like every other country addresses it, budget matters is serious, military use and or involvement, National debt, unfounded mandates, equality, the environment, global warming, taxes, everything that governments control needs attention yet we ALL will vote with the partisan viewpoints that we are tarred with in mind.

    I will never vote for another democrat again because like gays, women, blacks, Muslims, Jews, men and immigrants I’m sick of being a fall guy for policy positions. I’m sick of being the boogie man for Democrats. Democrats use open demagoguery against me personally, as far as I can see and like all of the groups I named, I refuse to,vote for a group that openly condemns me. When I’m faced with open hostility against me I, like everyone else, get offended.

    I won’t even go into the actual awesome economic numbers as a common sense reason not to disrupt things even though that’s the biggest reason to vote republican, ill just stick to voting on the rehtoric, democrats are not my friends (politically) they are the lynch mob that I see and they are coming at me, in mass with lies and pitchforks.

    I’ll ask this to end it, Why in hell would I vote for the party that tells everyone that I’m a monster, a monster they want to kill ?
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2018
  4. WreckinGT

    WreckinGT Helluva Engineer

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    3,193
    If you will never vote for a Democrat again, then what is the point of all this crying? The only thing you can do is vote and you have already made your mind up on all future votes. You aren’t changing anyone else’s opinion posting on a message board so why bother? I’ll never understand those who are close minded partaking in angry discussion about the subject they have refused to change their mind on. Do you just want to be angry?
     
  5. LibertyTurns

    LibertyTurns Helluva Engineer

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    Some extremely interesting revisionist history going on here with affirmations from each side. Let me remind you all:

    FoxNews & Rush Limbaugh rose to prominence in the 90’s because mainstream media had lurched so far left the 40% of America that considered themselves conservative was left without a media outlet. ABC, CBS, NBC had been dominated starting in the early 80’s by liberal commentary. No longer were the supposed “middle of the road” Walter Cronkite style editorial newscasts the norm, but were replaced by Dan Rather, Peter Jennings, Tom Brokaw, etc. There was an enormous untapped conservative audience & Fox/Rush filled the void much like any other savvy business would have done.

    Liberals developed the playbook for use of extreme rhetoric in political discussions. Read Alynski’s Rules for Radicals & if you’re at all educated in the history of this country & not delusional you will see what amounts to an exceptional execution of his philosophy. The Clintons, the Mannequin in particular as Bubba was just the perfect poster child for the movement, weaponized the processes and brought them to market. Words like racist, extremist, radical & misogynist were applied to normal people having discussions about social, economic & domestic policies in order to demonize them for political gain. Oh yeah, Conservatives fought back with such nasty labels as elitist, lunatic & wingnut. Hmmm, wonder who in the battle of terms ends up looking like the bad guy? A media coup for the Liberals because a racist is always worse than a wingnut for example.

    Lost in all this is the real discussions of the policies. Who’s worse the guy that advocates for freedom & equal opportunity and nobody should deny them the right to earn their way or the person that suppresses a certain race’s will to succeed by telling that race of people they’re inherently inferior & need to be given stuff to be on an even playing field? There’s millions of examples. Pick a topic. The Liberals have excelled at making wrong look right & right look wrong.

    Read Rules for Radicals. It spells it all out in clear & easy to understand terms. I have to admit it really is a brilliant piece of work.
     
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  6. AE 87

    AE 87 Helluva Engineer

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    Speaking of Sol Alinsky, Rahm Immanuel used his credo, "Never let a crisis go to waste," and later attributed it to Winston Churchill.

    A TV show later had a character connect Churchill to the quote.
     
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  7. AE 87

    AE 87 Helluva Engineer

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    What's sad in all the talk about Fox News from the Left is that they're typically referring to the commentators like O'Reilly and Hannity. However, the actual news readers/reporters like Brett Baher, Chris Wallace and Shep Smith are not that conservative. They actually do try to be fair and balanced.

    Secondly, Fox News at its most conservative really is only as conservative as the Networks were liberal. The Left has never understood that. They thought Fox was way Right and so they have gone further Left. Crazy
     
  8. GT_05

    GT_05 Helluva Engineer

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    Shep is a liberal and has never hidden it. People assume that he is a conservative since he is on Fox.

    I think a lot of people that talk about how ultra right wing Fox News is have never actually watched it...maybe clips of Fox on YouTube. I also think a lot of people don’t see the difference between their editorial/opinion presenters, like Hannity, and the news delivery like Bret Bair.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  9. A Love Supreme

    A Love Supreme Helluva Engineer

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    No, I don't recall that. Help me out.
    Let me get this straight, you have no problem with Trump's lies and abrasive rhetoric because you believe CNN and the left wing media did it first? George W. Bush got a ton of negative coverage too. You didn't see him act like this. This country is at it's most polarized political environment in a long time. The president of the United States could be leader and tone it down. But he seems more interested in pleasing himself and his followers like you instead of being the president for all Americans.
     
  10. MWBATL

    MWBATL Helluva Engineer

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    Wow. I actually think you did not bother reading a word I said.

    By the way, do you honestly feel Obama was a President for all Americans? (Hint: He was most definitely NOT.)
     
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  11. Technut1990

    Technut1990 Helluva Engineer

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    Thats rich coming from you Wreck. Unfortunately for you I will comment on anything I like and as I do so I will refuse to vote for any Democrat ever again. My early vote was Republican Republican Republican Republican, Libertarian, Libertarian, Libertarian, yes, no , no , no , no.

    No more angry than the liberal race baiters and property damaging libs you support. Have you supported a flag burner lately ? I bet you kneel in your living room when you hear the Anthem, even if you are alone.
     
  12. A Love Supreme

    A Love Supreme Helluva Engineer

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    Once again you prove yourself as nothing but a right wing partisan. There once was a thing called, "being presidential" and rising above the nonsense. I guess that only applies to a Democratic president. You don't think it applies to this current president. You've proven it over and over again with your many excuses for Trump. You want to talk about crazy rhetoric and lies but you refuse to call out your master Trump when he does it. Because you believe it's ok for him to do it. and you agree with what he says. You probably enjoy the partisanship and division because you think you are "taking your country back" or "making America great again." You had no problem with Republicans using Taliban tactics to filibuster any and all legislation in Obama's 1st term even though it could help the country (which was in a deep recession at the time). But of course to you, Democrats and the media are your enemy. That's what your master Trump taught you. You have drunk the kool-aid. With so many people that think like you out there, I have less faith that our country can recover from its division.
     
  13. LibertyTurns

    LibertyTurns Helluva Engineer

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    On occasion a Liberal screws up & inadvertently allows themselves to be heard. If this was a Conservative reporter, “racist reporter” would be all over the news along with reports of him/her being fired or stepping down with an apology.

    The Liberal media just can’t get past their racist biases that a Conservative could actually happen to be a successful educated black man. Sad.

    https://dailycaller.com/2018/11/05/reporter-john-james-midterms-michigan/
     
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  14. bwelbo

    bwelbo Helluva Engineer

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    I have always felt, and still do, that Trump could actually have gone down as a successful and popular President if he weren’t such an a-hole. Lots of people excuse it because being cordial only hurt Bush II and incented people to run over him...and because they feel the horrible press deserves it.

    I just think even if the press does deserve it, you don’t have to act and say things the way Trump does and still make the point. Obama poked at people a lot when he disagreed with them without being an a-hole about it. I mean yes he was snarky at times like anybody else.
     
  15. MWBATL

    MWBATL Helluva Engineer

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    My goodness, what a rant. You must be a very unhappy person. Sad.

    I did notice you did not answer my question. I can only assume that as a partisan left-winger, you cannot bear to admit that Obama was as divisive as they come. His language was (perhaps) not as brusque, but his actions most certainly were worse...(you know, lying about IMPORTANT stuff, not silly stuff).

    Near as I can tell, when you are boxed in by logic, you resort to political rants. You knida remind me of Hilary, who rather than engaging in a true debate of ideas simply called her opponents "deplorable".
     
  16. LibertyTurns

    LibertyTurns Helluva Engineer

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    @MWBATL They either don’t have policies or those that they have can’t pass the smell test. When presented with reams of facts, they deflect or hide waiting until the smoke clears. Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, polarize it. It was Alynski’s most impactful rule. There’s nothing about right or wrong or what’s better, it’s all about subjugating the masses so you exercise complete control over them.
     
  17. A Love Supreme

    A Love Supreme Helluva Engineer

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    Nope, not unhappy at all even though you have ignored a few of my questions. You want to talk about logic but all you do in your arguments is deflect and go back to the "liberal media" talking point or talk about how bad Democrats are. You bringing up Hillary Clinton and Bob Menendez is proof of that. You still haven't admitted that you lied when you said people on CNN were talking about sending troops to the White House and blood in the streets. You still haven't addressed to why you always play the victim. You still haven't addressed the fact that W. Bush also got harsh media coverage but didn't add to the divisiveness. You haven't refuted my point of how you give excuses to Trump for his inflammatory rhetoric.
     
  18. A Love Supreme

    A Love Supreme Helluva Engineer

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    Whats with your infatuation with Saul Alinsky? I know Glenn Beck and Newt Gingrich made a big deal about him and turned him into another liberal boogeyman.
     
  19. A Love Supreme

    A Love Supreme Helluva Engineer

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    Thats what I mean by being presidential. W. Bush got very harsh criticism from the press but he didn't lash out or have political rallies against the press like Trump is doing now. W. Bush acted like a president.
     
  20. AE 87

    AE 87 Helluva Engineer

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    Fwiw, you're right about W. He was an ineffective President during his second term as a result.
     

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