not about Minnesota

Animal02

Helluva Engineer
Messages
6,054
Location
Southeastern Michigan
Wait. You mean to say that a head coach can have a mediocre first season after taking over a bowl team? Have an average second season where there’s improvement every week? Start the third season 8-0 and have an outside shot to sneak into the CFP?!?!?!? No. Can’t be, not around here at least. Good luck to the Golden Gophers who wear yellow, from the Yellow Jackets that wear gold.
The difference being a mediocre season vs. the crap fest happening on the flats.
 

LibertyTurns

Helluva Engineer
Messages
5,337
Why so sad?

This is what you were hoping for.
This is the heart of where the disconnect occurs. People that hated the prior regime projecting their tactics onto the other side.

GT Fans without “coach or scheme” agendas want a GT Team to succeed. We want to leverage advantages (scheme, player smarts, technology, etc) and minimize disadvantages (talent disparities, smaller fanbase pool, etc).

I’ll call it the 3rd leg of the stool-

You had a decade of “fans” praying for a collapse because they hated the coach/scheme so bad. It wasn’t subtle hatred, it was outright vocal, visible, etc hatred.

Now you got the side that just wants to poke at the new regime using the same old tactics that were being used against the old regime. It’s not the same though because I don’t hear the clamoring for failure to oust the new staff like I did with the old staff.

Then you got my camp. I just want GT to succeed. I’ll point out failures or question strategy and get labeled a hater. I’ll point out successes and get painted as a fanboy.

I’m neither. I’m just a GT Fan that looks at reality and makes my own mind up whether I like something or not. I just wish the lunatic fringe on both sides would take a siesta and think about being GT Fans for a while because the old system is not coming back and the new system is going to be with us for a while. Successes are likely going to be hard to find among the growing pains of an inexperienced staff, a massive self-inflicted culture change that is part of CGC’s grand strategy, etc and it’s going to take 3-4 years before this experiment is either going to work or not.

Edit- oust the staff except for P’nut who there’s many that would prefer to see him go now
 

Boaty1

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
994
This is the heart of where the disconnect occurs. People that hated the prior regime projecting their tactics onto the other side.

GT Fans without “coach or scheme” agendas want a GT Team to succeed. We want to leverage advantages (scheme, player smarts, technology, etc) and minimize disadvantages (talent disparities, smaller fanbase pool, etc).

I’ll call it the 3rd leg of the stool-

You had a decade of “fans” praying for a collapse because they hated the coach/scheme so bad. It wasn’t subtle hatred, it was outright vocal, visible, etc hatred.

Now you got the side that just wants to poke at the new regime using the same old tactics that were being used against the old regime. It’s not the same though because I don’t hear the clamoring for failure to oust the new staff like I did with the old staff.

Then you got my camp. I just want GT to succeed. I’ll point out failures or question strategy and get labeled a hater. I’ll point out successes and get painted as a fanboy.

I’m neither. I’m just a GT Fan that looks at reality and makes my own mind up whether I like something or not. I just wish the lunatic fringe on both sides would take a siesta and think about being GT Fans for a while because the old system is not coming back and the new system is going to be with us for a while. Successes are likely going to be hard to find among the growing pains of an inexperienced staff, a massive self-inflicted culture change that is part of CGC’s grand strategy, etc and it’s going to take 3-4 years before this experiment is either going to work or not.

Edit- oust the staff except for P’nut who there’s many that would prefer to see him go now

Let me speak for the other side. I certainly didn't hate CPJ. I was very appreciative of his successes here but believe it is more than a coincidence that his best 2 year stretch came with Gailey's players in 08-09. I believed his inability to recruit could not be offset by his tactical genius on a consistent basis. My issue with CPJ was because I ultimately thought he hurt our program and that we could do better. Nothing more nothing less.

Here is the difference between the Pro CPJ and the Pro CGC crowd in my view. The pro Johnson crowd ultimately has very little faith in what our program can be. They see the challenges such as limited cirriculum, smaller fan base, APR etc and believe we have to have a gimmick to succeed and that is what CPJ's offense provided. The Pro CGC'ers however believe the program is a good job and that our expectations should be to consistently make bowl games regardless of who the coach is. We believe we can recruit at a top 25ish level consistently with our program history and geography. We believe that history proves us to be correct on that assessment.

I believe only a few out there have a personal vendetta against either coach. Most of it is simply differing perspectives on our program.
 

JorgeJonas

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,147
Here is the difference between the Pro CPJ and the Pro CGC crowd in my view. The pro Johnson crowd ultimately has very little faith in what our program can be. They see the challenges such as limited cirriculum, smaller fan base, APR etc and believe we have to have a gimmick to succeed and that is what CPJ's offense provided. The Pro CGC'ers however believe the program is a good job and that our expectations should be to consistently make bowl games regardless of who the coach is. We believe we can recruit at a top 25ish level consistently with our program history and geography. We believe that history proves us to be correct on that assessment.

Yep. This is the core of the disagreement.
 

danny daniel

Helluva Engineer
Messages
2,102
Let me speak for the other side. I certainly didn't hate CPJ. I was very appreciative of his successes here but believe it is more than a coincidence that his best 2 year stretch came with Gailey's players in 08-09. I believed his inability to recruit could not be offset by his tactical genius on a consistent basis. My issue with CPJ was because I ultimately thought he hurt our program and that we could do better. Nothing more nothing less.

Here is the difference between the Pro CPJ and the Pro CGC crowd in my view. The pro Johnson crowd ultimately has very little faith in what our program can be. They see the challenges such as limited cirriculum, smaller fan base, APR etc and believe we have to have a gimmick to succeed and that is what CPJ's offense provided. The Pro CGC'ers however believe the program is a good job and that our expectations should be to consistently make bowl games regardless of who the coach is. We believe we can recruit at a top 25ish level consistently with our program history and geography. We believe that history proves us to be correct on that assessment.

I believe only a few out there have a personal vendetta against either coach. Most of it is simply differing perspectives on our program.

My perspective:

I thought CPJ was way ahead of most other coaches on game day. He had 4 down mentality. He understood how to win, to manage the clock, to call plays, to adjust his blocking, to maintain drives, to eat up the clock and shorten the game, and maybe most importantly how to score in the red zone. He had some short comings IMO like in the passing game and developing depth by not playing enough playersI On non game days there were some obvious shortcomings (such as recruiting, media interface, attention to special teams and D, and more).

I can readily support CGC's actions to transform the program (on all but game day). I even agree with most of it. What is frustrating is game day such as "rookie" mistakes such as clock management, penalties for back to back 12 men on the field, some undisciplined personal fouls, playing Yates one play, and QB management. On offense there is play calling in general (plenty of examples), inability to sustain drives (back to play calling), lack of plan for power running to gain short yardage, pathetic red zone performance, poor punt coverage, terrible KO return performance, and a TOTAL offensive transformation without a more "gradual approach" or taking advantage of existing opportunities or players (Oliver, Option running, screens to our playmakers). I hate the gun in short yardage and red zone, the dinky short yardage passes, the continual one yard runs up the middle on 2nd and long, and in key situations not getting the ball in the hands of our best players. Maybe experience and time and patience will solve some of these game day frustrations but most likely I will not be very happy with this O imitation of everybody else because to be elite it requires players we historically cannot recruit (QBs and big athletic lineman).

By the way I like the way our D is progressing, long way to go but reasons to have hope.
 

Boaty1

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
994
My perspective:

I thought CPJ was way ahead of most other coaches on game day. He had 4 down mentality. He understood how to win, to manage the clock, to call plays, to adjust his blocking, to maintain drives, to eat up the clock and shorten the game, and maybe most importantly how to score in the red zone. He had some short comings IMO like in the passing game and developing depth by not playing enough playersI On non game days there were some obvious shortcomings (such as recruiting, media interface, attention to special teams and D, and more).

I can readily support CGC's actions to transform the program (on all but game day). I even agree with most of it. What is frustrating is game day such as "rookie" mistakes such as clock management, penalties for back to back 12 men on the field, some undisciplined personal fouls, playing Yates one play, and QB management. On offense there is play calling in general (plenty of examples), inability to sustain drives (back to play calling), lack of plan for power running to gain short yardage, pathetic red zone performance, poor punt coverage, terrible KO return performance, and a TOTAL offensive transformation without a more "gradual approach" or taking advantage of existing opportunities or players (Oliver, Option running, screens to our playmakers). I hate the gun in short yardage and red zone, the dinky short yardage passes, the continual one yard runs up the middle on 2nd and long, and in key situations not getting the ball in the hands of our best players. Maybe experience and time and patience will solve some of these game day frustrations but most likely I will not be very happy with this O imitation of everybody else because to be elite it requires players we historically cannot recruit (QBs and big athletic lineman).

By the way I like the way our D is progressing, long way to go but reasons to have hope.

I would encourage you to check out 4 of the 5 coaches we had since joining the ACC pre Johnson. Curry, Ross, O’Leary and Gailey all had a reasonable amount of success “looking like everyone else”. I don’t know why we think we have to have a gimmick to put a competitive product on the field now.
 

jgtengineer

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,503
I would encourage you to check out 4 of the 5 coaches we had since joining the ACC pre Johnson. Curry, Ross, O’Leary and Gailey all had a reasonable amount of success “looking like everyone else”. I don’t know why we think we have to have a gimmick to put a competitive product on the field now.

See this is where you people lose me. Curry had the most limited success of any coach you just listed there while at tech. Ross and O'leary both and Friedgin as their OC and he was not running an offense "like everyone else" The Friedgin offense is an Option based, multiple formation run and shoot with power running mixed in. It was a unique offense in 1990, it was a unique one in 98 and 99. Go watch a game from that time, the announcers have the same bingo card (right down to the 3rd and long stuff.) Gailey is basically what suggested that we couldn't compete that way if we wanted better than 7-6 or 8-5. Even with lot sof NFL talent on D and a few playmakers on offense he lost to wake 9-6. Was he horrible? No. But that is the closest we came to "looking like everyone else" and having success.

Do not change facts to suit your arguement. We have had the same problems going all the way back to Dodd's time. It was a reason we left the SEC and a reason Dodd's name is on the coach of the year trophy. Doing more with less and innovating or attacking the field different is our history.

Collins is no different here. ATL, BRAND, Market Market Market. Is very different than any coach we've had since Pepper Rodgers (who ran the wishbone when it was cool) It may work too. But this "pro style spread" very much has been a highschool one so far complete with deep bomb passes and wacky formations. As well as a true QB keeper designed offense with TO.

Do I think we can do better than we ultimately ended up doing under johnson? Depends. People going to actually donate to the AA?
 

vamosjackets

GT Athlete
Featured Member
Messages
2,126
Let me speak for the other side. I certainly didn't hate CPJ. I was very appreciative of his successes here but believe it is more than a coincidence that his best 2 year stretch came with Gailey's players in 08-09. I believed his inability to recruit could not be offset by his tactical genius on a consistent basis. My issue with CPJ was because I ultimately thought he hurt our program and that we could do better. Nothing more nothing less.

Here is the difference between the Pro CPJ and the Pro CGC crowd in my view. The pro Johnson crowd ultimately has very little faith in what our program can be. They see the challenges such as limited cirriculum, smaller fan base, APR etc and believe we have to have a gimmick to succeed and that is what CPJ's offense provided. The Pro CGC'ers however believe the program is a good job and that our expectations should be to consistently make bowl games regardless of who the coach is. We believe we can recruit at a top 25ish level consistently with our program history and geography. We believe that history proves us to be correct on that assessment.

I believe only a few out there have a personal vendetta against either coach. Most of it is simply differing perspectives on our program.
@Boaty1 , I appreciate your well thought out and mostly accurate assessment here. Good job. I have one big issue with your description of the CPJ perspective. I do not believe we need a "gimmick" to succeed, I believe we need a superior system/scheme, which is what I believe about the option offense, and I do not believe that to be a contentious point. If anyone wants to argue that the option is not a superior system, they would have to then explain how the Citadel beat us without a superior system, and how Navy and Army and Georgia Tech all beat teams more often than not that are/were more talented, have more money, better facilities, more and better paid personnel, etc. They would have to have another explanation as to why our offense was consistently at the top of CFB. Why wouldn't we want a superior system like that? There are only two reasons. One, some care more about style/image than substance. Two, some think we can recruit our way to the top. But, if you don't believe we can out-recruit the bluebloods, then I don't think you have a legit reason to not want the superior system.

I do believe there is more than one way to succeed. The option is one way. Ralph Friedgen was another way (in his time). Mike Leach is another way. As I've said plenty of times, I'm giving CGC the fairest chance I can (a few years) to prove he has one of those ways, though it may not be visible to me right now. And, at the same time, I will continue to have an unavoidable skepticism toward any approach at GEORGIA TECH that is based on reaching the top by out-recruiting those at the top.
 

Supersizethatorder-mutt

Helluva Engineer
Messages
13,298
Location
Augusta, GA
Ross and O'leary both and Friedgin as their OC and he was not running an offense "like everyone else" The Friedgin offense is an Option based, multiple formation run and shoot with power running mixed in. It was a unique offense in 1990, it was a unique one in 98 and 99.
EXACTLY, and it would be a unique AND SUCCESSFUL offense in 2019 as well.
 

4shotB

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
2,366
@Boaty1 They would have to have another explanation as to why our offense was consistently at the top of CFB. Why wouldn't we want a superior system like that? There are only two reasons. One, some care more about style/image than substance. Two, some think we can recruit our way to the top. But, if you don't believe we can out-recruit the bluebloods, then I don't think you have a legit reason to not want the superior system.

Vamos, I think there may be a 3rd option and tbh, one that I have never really resolved in my mind. The option system MAY have impacted our ability to recruit defensively. Over ten years and multiple DC's, we never seemed to be a well rounded team (O,D and ST's). Maybe the system was NOT the root cause as there were other lurking variables at play - resources being chief among them. But we will never know the true answer to this question although many of us will have opinions on this that we will mistake for the truth.;)

I don't think we can outrecruit the 6 or 7 heavyweights. But I believe if CCG had been able to recruit just one top tier QB during his tenure (and perhaps an OC to go along with it) I think we would have a different perspective of his time on the Flats and he would have positioned us as a consistent top 25 type program. Perhaps my memory is distorted by time, age and copious amounts of bourbon.
 

TheSilasSonRising

Helluva Engineer
Messages
3,729
My perspective:

I thought CPJ was way ahead of most other coaches on game day. He had 4 down mentality. He understood how to win, to manage the clock, to call plays, to adjust his blocking, to maintain drives, to eat up the clock and shorten the game, and maybe most importantly how to score in the red zone. He had some short comings IMO like in the passing game and developing depth by not playing enough playersI On non game days there were some obvious shortcomings (such as recruiting, media interface, attention to special teams and D, and more).

I can readily support CGC's actions to transform the program (on all but game day). I even agree with most of it. What is frustrating is game day such as "rookie" mistakes such as clock management, penalties for back to back 12 men on the field, some undisciplined personal fouls, playing Yates one play, and QB management. On offense there is play calling in general (plenty of examples), inability to sustain drives (back to play calling), lack of plan for power running to gain short yardage, pathetic red zone performance, poor punt coverage, terrible KO return performance, and a TOTAL offensive transformation without a more "gradual approach" or taking advantage of existing opportunities or players (Oliver, Option running, screens to our playmakers). I hate the gun in short yardage and red zone, the dinky short yardage passes, the continual one yard runs up the middle on 2nd and long, and in key situations not getting the ball in the hands of our best players. Maybe experience and time and patience will solve some of these game day frustrations but most likely I will not be very happy with this O imitation of everybody else because to be elite it requires players we historically cannot recruit (QBs and big athletic lineman).

By the way I like the way our D is progressing, long way to go but reasons to have hope.

And I think that is a well put summary and well said.
 

TheSilasSonRising

Helluva Engineer
Messages
3,729
See this is where you people lose me. Curry had the most limited success of any coach you just listed there while at tech. Ross and O'leary both and Friedgin as their OC and he was not running an offense "like everyone else" The Friedgin offense is an Option based, multiple formation run and shoot with power running mixed in. It was a unique offense in 1990, it was a unique one in 98 and 99. Go watch a game from that time, the announcers have the same bingo card (right down to the 3rd and long stuff.) Gailey is basically what suggested that we couldn't compete that way if we wanted better than 7-6 or 8-5. Even with lot sof NFL talent on D and a few playmakers on offense he lost to wake 9-6. Was he horrible? No. But that is the closest we came to "looking like everyone else" and having success.

Do not change facts to suit your arguement. We have had the same problems going all the way back to Dodd's time. It was a reason we left the SEC and a reason Dodd's name is on the coach of the year trophy. Doing more with less and innovating or attacking the field different is our history.

Collins is no different here. ATL, BRAND, Market Market Market. Is very different than any coach we've had since Pepper Rodgers (who ran the wishbone when it was cool) It may work too. But this "pro style spread" very much has been a highschool one so far complete with deep bomb passes and wacky formations. As well as a true QB keeper designed offense with TO.

Do I think we can do better than we ultimately ended up doing under johnson? Depends. People going to actually donate to the AA?

I pretty much despise curry now for his pomposity and arrogance. I supported him with money and materials during his time here.

But despite his shortcomings (anyone thinking we should have hired him over Spurrier is insane) he inherited embarrassing facilities from AD Dodd. And he played the toughest schedules ANY GT coach ever had to before or since.
 

MountainBuzzMan

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
799
@Boaty1

I do believe there is more than one way to succeed. The option is one way. Ralph Friedgen was another way (in his time). Mike Leach is another way. As I've said plenty of times, I'm giving CGC the fairest chance I can (a few years) to prove he has one of those ways, though it may not be visible to me right now. And, at the same time, I will continue to have an unavoidable skepticism toward any approach at GEORGIA TECH that is based on reaching the top by out-recruiting those at the top.

This is how I was as well. But I wanted him to come in with a plan from day one and clearly articulate it. Give me a reason to believe. But he has not and I don't believe he has any kind of an offensive vision. Just saying we are going to be different than the 3O does not cut it. The crap P-Nut is doing is a complete embarrassment. It was obvious after spring how bad this year was going to be. I REALLY want to be emotional invested in Tech Football. But until CGC proves he can be a capable head coach and know what he is doing besides having an average defense, I have stopped caring about Tech Football and will no longer support them financially.

CGC, needs to decide for himself what his complete football philosophy is and why it gives him an advantaged. Then you wrap all the Rah Rah stuff around that and you may actually have something.

Hey maybe that swinging gate offense will work for us, I hear some P5 teams are running it from time to time.
 

green&gold

Georgia Tech Fan
Messages
44
The difference being a mediocre season vs. the crap fest happening on the flats.

Great thread, dude. You should do another one about the triple option. Then another one about Ralph Friedgen. Then one about Bobby Ross. Then another about how Paul actually never lost at Georgia Tech.
 
Top