NCAA Tournament

YlJacket

Helluva Engineer
Messages
3,163
I agree with Root that watching the NCAAT games certainly drives home the reasons why our team was a 20 loss team. Physically, our team certainly does not look like these NCAA teams. These teams are composed of thick, explosive athletes. These guys are buff. Actually, our skill level was not that far amiss, but these teams in the tournament have bull-strong athletes in both the back and front courts. I have seen posts complaining about our style of offense, but teams running similar stuff as we do dot the tournament.

A big difference in this season compared to previous Pastner teams and compared to the NCAAT teams is our lack of rotation and weak side defense. Good teams rotate quickly and protect the paint much better than we did. Our defense would not have contained these teams. We would have held them to a low 3pt%, but they would have killed us inside.

We had a bad year. The team was competitive and Usher was a pleasure to watch but we were not good. We may not have been awful, but we were not good. Even as an ACC team, I would have to say that we were a below average team taken across the college basketball landscape.

Saying that is not a prediction of the future. I hope and expect that the deficiencies are identified and plans for correction are implemented with vigor. But we will certainly have to increase strength, thickness and explosiveness to compete with the kinds of teams that are winning in the tournament currently.
While other teams are running dribble handoffs with their bigs, it isn't what we run. No one runs with the same lack of spacing that we do - we play in a phone booth with the ball at the foul line which causes everything off the dribble drive handoff by the big to be very compressed. Our guards/wings get the ball going downhill with only one dribble to make a decision on drive/shoot/kick. The other teams that run the dribble handoff by the big are doing it out at the top of the key or higher. Guards/wings get the ball looking to drive from top of the key which while longer does allow them to read the play and have more time to force the help from the wing. Additionally, having the big further out means the big is generally going to be further away from the rim as he has to hedge the screen or just watch the other team shoot (see Kofi). And if there is a switch you want spacing to allow the guard to have time to beat the big to the rim. Doesn't happen when everything is around the foul line.
 

LargeFO

Helluva Engineer
Messages
3,134
While other teams are running dribble handoffs with their bigs, it isn't what we run. No one runs with the same lack of spacing that we do - we play in a phone booth with the ball at the foul line which causes everything off the dribble drive handoff by the big to be very compressed. Our guards/wings get the ball going downhill with only one dribble to make a decision on drive/shoot/kick. The other teams that run the dribble handoff by the big are doing it out at the top of the key or higher. Guards/wings get the ball looking to drive from top of the key which while longer does allow them to read the play and have more time to force the help from the wing. Additionally, having the big further out means the big is generally going to be further away from the rim as he has to hedge the screen or just watch the other team shoot (see Kofi). And if there is a switch you want spacing to allow the guard to have time to beat the big to the rim. Doesn't happen when everything is around the foul line.

Agreed. And Howard doesn't pass near as well as say, Lammers.
 

forensicbuzz

Helluva Engineer
Messages
8,008
Location
North Shore, Chicago
I get the gist. Still any implication that we were anything but awful this year is misleading. This year was so discouraging and leaves little hope for next year. Hard to be up on GT BB right now.
Not hard for everyone. I see plenty to be optimistic about. I think we make bold moves in the Portal and as this group matures we do really well. It all depends on what perspective you want to take.
 

forensicbuzz

Helluva Engineer
Messages
8,008
Location
North Shore, Chicago
Most preseason conversations I have ultimately get me thinking about Seneca (one of the many great stoic writers) taking about the concept of not suffering twice from a potential problem.

In one of his letters to Lucilius (a friend and contemporary) he suggests you have to go through pain to know what you can handle and to be able later in life to approach the potential for pain with confiendece: “no prizefighter can go with high spirits into the strife if he has never been beaten black and blue; the only contestant who can confidently enter the lists is the man who has seen his own blood, who has felt his teeth rattle beneath his opponent’s fist, who has been tripped and felt the full force of his adversary’s charge, who has been downed in body but not in spirit, one who, as often as he falls, rises again with greater defiance than ever”.

So for each painstaking loss we have suffered this year, remember it is preparing us for the future conflict or challenging game ahead. We suffer the set backs, focused only on finding was to get faster, stronger and better as a team. The stoics believe that the iron sharpening iron concept almost every coach uses is critical to the mental side of happiness/success/contentment.

Another two quotes speaking even further to my general approach to life (we can’t control the world, but can control how we respond to it) show up in the same letter when he posits:

“There are more things, Lucilius, likely to frighten us than there are to crush us; we suffer more often in imagination than in reality”. Following up with: “some things torment us more than they ought; some torment us before they ought; and some torment us when they ought not to torment us at all. We are in the habit of exaggerating, or imagining, or anticipating, sorrow”

I may be an eternal optimist, but I see a path for how our squad next year takes a big step forward. We need to get/develop a true 5 man, and I would love to pick up a combo guard - but Kyle/Smith/Coleman/Miles give us good combos at guard and I really like the flashes we have seen from J.Moore and Meka at the 4.

All that said, this staff has shown an ability to find and develop talent in unconventional players (Moses and Jose most recently). As well as refine raw ability (Usher and any number of our Bigs from years prior to our most recent campaign). I refuse to be negative about the team’s prospects till we start playing next year.

No point suffering the potential of bad news before we know it to be true.
You been reading "A Man in Full?"
 

Root4GT

Helluva Engineer
Messages
2,345
Not hard for everyone. I see plenty to be optimistic about. I think we make bold moves in the Portal and as this group matures we do really well. It all depends on what perspective you want to take.
I will take CJP’s history at GT as my take. HS recruiting has been bottom 4 in the ACC. Transfers have been about mid tier in the ACC. Player development has been above average in the ACC. Game coaching has been about average at best. Add that up and you get a ceiling of middle of the pack in conference. You get a floor of run this year back.

I hope I am wrong but there is no evidence that makes me believe I am. If we are in the top 7 in conference next year I will be happy. That’s a low bar as it’s barely NIT land.
 

MidtownJacket

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
4,800
I will take CJP’s history at GT as my take. HS recruiting has been bottom 4 in the ACC. Transfers have been about mid tier in the ACC. Player development has been above average in the ACC. Game coaching has been about average at best. Add that up and you get a ceiling of middle of the pack in conference. You get a floor of run this year back.

I hope I am wrong but there is no evidence that makes me believe I am. If we are in the top 7 in conference next year I will be happy. That’s a low bar as it’s barely NIT land.
Last year we took two guys who had essentially 0 interest from ACC schools and turned them into the ACC POY/ACC DPOY. If our HS recruiting is bottom tier than our development is top tier (top 4). If we’re not top tier in Conference development I don’t know what is. We also saw Jordan Usher establish his own identity, play within himself and become a key piece for this team over the last two years. We also had big steps (and we’ll see them next year I believe) in establishing Meka and J Moore. The development of our players has had to be what it is, because our recruiting has struggled under coach, no argument here.

I think we have a great story to tell portal guys and believe we are getting back to the right side of .500 next season. From. Transfer Rating perspective: We have pulled in James Banks III (2x All Defensive team ACC); Jordan Usher; Kyle Sturdivant (will be better this next year and was serviceable - not amazing this season); Rodney Howard (improved at the end of the year but still isn’t great).

Our coaching is suspect on O but hard to argue we aren’t a too 4 defensive squad which is ALL scheme and coaching.

I guess my take is I see us projecting to a ceiling of top third on conference under this staff with an occasional run in the ACCT and that’s not average at all.

I still believe we are on the Tony train at uva with get old/stay old.
 

forensicbuzz

Helluva Engineer
Messages
8,008
Location
North Shore, Chicago
I will take CJP’s history at GT as my take. HS recruiting has been bottom 4 in the ACC. Transfers have been about mid tier in the ACC. Player development has been above average in the ACC. Game coaching has been about average at best. Add that up and you get a ceiling of middle of the pack in conference. You get a floor of run this year back.

I hope I am wrong but there is no evidence that makes me believe I am. If we are in the top 7 in conference next year I will be happy. That’s a low bar as it’s barely NIT land.
I understand why you're not optimistic. I'm just saying I'm more optimistic. I am until they show me that they're not going to be good. So, for now, I'm going to look forward to next season and cheer on the guys. I think if we get to 8 wins in football the Admin will be satisfied (not vocally, but internally). I think the bar is set much higher for basketball. I think Stansbury is going to let the Pastner group play out a little longer. Just my opinion.
 

orientalnc

Helluva Engineer
Retired Staff
Messages
9,332
Location
Oriental, NC
2013 Southern - lost in round 2
2014 Oklahoma St - lost in round 2
2015 N Dakota St, Iowa, UCLA - lost in regional finals
2016 Seton Hall, Utah - lost in round 3
2017 five wins - lost in championship game
2018 UNCG, Ohio St - lost in round 3
2019 FDU, Baylor, FSU - lost in regional finals
2020
2021 Five wins - lost in championship game
2022 Ga State, Memphis, ?

24 wins. A few cupcakes, but a lot of really good wins. No championships.

 

lv20gt

Helluva Engineer
Messages
5,545
IMO Gonazaga's league doesn't prepare them the best for the tourney.

That doesn't mean their schedule doesn't. They played Texas, Duke, Alabama, Texas Tech, and UCLA ooc this year.
Last year they played Kansas, Baylor (scheduled but covid canceled), WVU, UVA, Iowa
Year before, Oregon, Washing, UNC, Arizaona

And that trend continues back.

If you look back at the earlier years their OOC wasn't as good and they lost earlier. I think Gonzaga's scheduling history supports the idea that their league doesn't prep them for the tourney well enough. So they use the OOC to help that.
 

Root4GT

Helluva Engineer
Messages
2,345
Last year we took two guys who had essentially 0 interest from ACC schools and turned them into the ACC POY/ACC DPOY. If our HS recruiting is bottom tier than our development is top tier (top 4). If we’re not top tier in Conference development I don’t know what is. We also saw Jordan Usher establish his own identity, play within himself and become a key piece for this team over the last two years. We also had big steps (and we’ll see them next year I believe) in establishing Meka and J Moore. The development of our players has had to be what it is, because our recruiting has struggled under coach, no argument here.

I think we have a great story to tell portal guys and believe we are getting back to the right side of .500 next season. From. Transfer Rating perspective: We have pulled in James Banks III (2x All Defensive team ACC); Jordan Usher; Kyle Sturdivant (will be better this next year and was serviceable - not amazing this season); Rodney Howard (improved at the end of the year but still isn’t great).

Our coaching is suspect on O but hard to argue we aren’t a too 4 defensive squad which is ALL scheme and coaching.

I guess my take is I see us projecting to a ceiling of top third on conference under this staff with an occasional run in the ACCT and that’s not average at all.

I still believe we are on the Tony train at uva with get old/stay old.
I hope you are correct. History under CJP says differently. One NCAAT in 6 years is bad and a 9 seed at that. No HS recruits this year. As I said transfers have been ok, average whatever term you want to use but not at the level to take a program from the bottom of the conference to the top half. Maybe he pulls in some studs this year. Hope so.
 

MidtownJacket

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
4,800
I hope you are correct. History under CJP says differently. One NCAAT in 6 years is bad and a 9 seed at that. No HS recruits this year. As I said transfers have been ok, average whatever term you want to use but not at the level to take a program from the bottom of the conference to the top half. Maybe he pulls in some studs this year. Hope so.
Me too :)

I understand why you're hesitant to chug the kool-aid. I also know I am probably just wired a little different. I am not out laying a bet the size of my mortgage on a ACC Championship - but I am also not ready to just accept that mediocrity is what we will get. There are some ifs and buts that may make the difference.
 

g0lftime

Helluva Engineer
Messages
5,347
Pastner may be loyal to his assistant coaches to a fault. He needs a really top PG coach who is also a dynamite recruiter. So far his staff hasn't been getting it done. Time to make a change or they all pay the price. It takes time to cultivate relationships with recruits. Next year is too late for 2024 unless he is going transfer portal and that is really risky with the extra COVID year going away.
 
Top