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Missouri under investigation? Post season ban?

Discussion in 'College & Pro Sports' started by orientalnc, Jan 31, 2019.

  1. orientalnc

    orientalnc Helluva Engineer

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  2. bwelbo

    bwelbo Helluva Engineer

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    Missouri only cheated about 1/30th as much. That's the main difference.

    The secondary difference is that they didn't get tutors to also complete regular students' work for them. Had they done that, per the NCAA there would be no violation.

    The NCAA can kiss my dirty rear end.
     
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  3. kg01

    kg01 Get-Bak! Coach Featured Member

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    ... is a joke as an organization?

     
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  4. bwelbo

    bwelbo Helluva Engineer

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    I mean you just can't make up this BS. And we have wire taps from the FBI exposing cheating and payment to players and the NCAA twiddles its thumbs.
     
  5. TooTall

    TooTall Helluva Engineer

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    My sides hurt from laughing at the NCAA for releasing this statement, courteously of ajc.com :

    "While the case is expected to draw comparisons to recent academic misconduct at North Carolina, the NCAA said it differed in that "UNC stood by the courses and grades it awarded student-athletes."

    "In support of that position," the NCAA's report said, "UNC asserted that although courses were created and graded by an office secretary, student-athletes completed their own work. Here, by contrast, Missouri acknowledged that the tutor completed student-athletes' work and, in most instances, this conduct violated its honor code."
     
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  6. bwelbo

    bwelbo Helluva Engineer

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    HA HA HA HA HA HA! The NCAA is a fugging joke. Many of those classes in question were FAKE and required no work and no attendance. LOL.
     
  7. bwelbo

    bwelbo Helluva Engineer

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    So to recap, requiring work that a tutor did for a dozen athletes is significantly worse than having tons of completely fake classes over a period of decades, classes that required no work or even attendance. And the infraction was bad enough that the NCAA gave the Missouri tutor the same show cause penalty as former Baylor hoops coach Dave Bliss, who tried to frame a murdered player.

    You just can't make this BS up.
     
  8. RonJohn

    RonJohn Helluva Engineer

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    In the UNC case, the school had classes that were jokes and should have lost accreditation. None of the student athletes in those classes were accused of conduct that could have gotten them expelled from school. The accreditation organization should have removed accreditation from the entire university for a penalty time, and then reinstated only after the school proved that checks were in place so that the situation could not happen again. 30,000 students finding out that their coursework might not lead to a recognized degree would have a huge impact, well beyond losing athletic scholarships and post-season eligibility.

    In the Mizzou case, all of the students involved should have been expelled from school for violating school rules. I seem remember a few GT students who were caught cheating and I only remember one who was in school after being caught.

    Actual academic cheating is easy to verify. Whether an individual class or degree at an academic institution is academically valid is well beyond the authority and the expertise of the NCAA. The accreditation organizations have that expertise. In the UNC case, they failed miserably at enforcing standards.
     
  9. kg01

    kg01 Get-Bak! Coach Featured Member

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    Very well said.

    You just earned my vote, sir.

    #RonJohn4President2020
     
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  10. bwelbo

    bwelbo Helluva Engineer

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    That sounds good on paper, except that the classes were set up for the benefit of athletes to make grades without having to go to class and without having to do any homework. Everyone knew what was going on. They set it up that way because they were much more criminally clever than Missouri and knew instead of taking the risk with tutors and all that they could claim ignorance around the structure of classes themselves. All this came out in the hearings - these classes weren't published like regular ones were and had massively higher registration rates from athletes. That's why UNCs response to the entire affair was to thumb their nose at the NCAA and challenge them with no remorse. They had long thought through all this - it was a major conspiracy involving the administration and attorneys. It wasn't just a rogue tutor or lazy professor here and there.
     
  11. orientalnc

    orientalnc Helluva Engineer

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    Maybe I am dumber than I thought, but I do not understand how the UNC case, where athletes were granted extraordinary benefits to remain eligible, and the Missouri case where athletes cheated to stay eligible while the university did nothing, are drastically different. So a tutor wrote papers in one case and a secretary awarded grades to faux papers in the other. Which of these is worse?
     
  12. RonJohn

    RonJohn Helluva Engineer

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    They also said something totally different to the NCAA than what they said to SACS. They told SACS that no degrees were conferred using those classes. They then told the NCAA that degrees were indeed conferred using those classes. I'm not sure about the SACS proceedings, but the NCAA proceedings were conducted in private. Therefore, SACS can't use anything from the NCAA proceedings to revisit the academic case because they can't access them.(It was reported what was said behind closed doors, but never verified or published.)

    It would still be difficult to prove that the classes were started for the express purpose of keeping athletes eligible. However, from an accreditation standpoint, it does not matter if joke classes and joke degress are started for, maintained for, and used by a select part of the student body or the entire student body. Joke classes and degrees in and by themselves prove a lack of administrative oversight by the academic administration and authorities at the school. That is grounds for removal of accreditation from the entire university. As I said before, loss of accreditation would have a much larger impact on UNC than any NCAA penalty. It would have a bigger impact on UNC than dismantling the football and basketball programs from the school.
     
  13. YellowJacketFan2018

    YellowJacketFan2018 Helluva Engineer

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  14. RonJohn

    RonJohn Helluva Engineer

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    My argument is about the correct authority in the matter.

    Should the NCAA mandate or decide what classes make a valid bachelor's degree? Should the NCAA decide that a racquetball class at GT can or cannot count as an elective toward a degree? Should the NCAA mandate that every student athlete must take a basic algebra class.(GT doesn't even offer a basic algebra class, at least as far as I know).

    It is my contention that the NCAA should stay far away from such matters. It is the responsibility of the school and accreditation body to verify academic integrity. SACS is the organization that failed miserably in the UNC case.
     
  15. RonJohn

    RonJohn Helluva Engineer

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    What does a show cause penalty against an academic tutor accomplish? I don't know anything about her other than she was a tutor for some Mizzou players. I seriously doubt that she will try to get a job at another NCAA institution as a tutor like a coach would.

    Also, as pointed out by Jason Kirk, apparently cheating on schoolwork is exactly the same in the eyes of the NCAA as fabricating evidence against a murdered athlete in order to shield the murderer. I also can't give up the opportunity to point out that authorities at Baylor(associated with the very conservative Southern Baptist Convention) covered up for athletes guilty of violent sexual assault and tried to shield an athlete who was a murderer. I grew up in a Southern Baptist church. The crimes, and the attempts to cover them up go against everything that I was taught at church.
     
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  16. orientalnc

    orientalnc Helluva Engineer

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    I see your point, but, living in NC, I got a lot more information and heard far more disagreement about how the NCAA handled (or didn't handle) the UNC case. Everyone who knew about those faux courses knew they were developed to support the athletes who needed help keeping their GPA up. No one thought they were legit college courses and the fact that a secretary basically graded the papers and posted grades for the course was just one of the warning signs. And, the academic advisers in the athletic department were fully on board with the fraud.
     
  17. boger2337

    boger2337 Helluva Engineer

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  18. Vespidae

    Vespidae Helluva Engineer

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    They should be banned. Probably for longer IMO. This is what’s wrong with college athletics.
     
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  19. RonJohn

    RonJohn Helluva Engineer

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    Even if everything you stated is true, SACS should have removed accreditation. If everything that @bwelbo says is in fact true:
    Then SACS should have more than definitely removed accreditation from the entire university. SACS makes good teachers nervous when they are assessing a school. The teachers try to make sure that they follow every written procedure, cross every t, and dot every i. If the university administration and legal department constructed and maintained invalid classes and degrees for one year, much less decades, then every degree at the entire school should have been declared invalid.

    I think people need to understand that the NCAA is not an omnipotent organization with authority over schools. The NCAA solely and simply regulates amateur athletics at colleges and universities. Imagine what would happen if SACS announced that every GT degree conferred in the last 50 years was now declared invalid. Imagine what would happen even if they just declared that any degree conferred from today until re-accredited was invalid. At least in my opinion, such thoughts make sports entertainment seem extremely unimportant.
     
  20. kg01

    kg01 Get-Bak! Coach Featured Member

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    Heh, how'd you like to be Kelly Bryant right now? You go from Clem to this nonsense?

    Then again, he's probably like, "C'mon guys, here's how you hide cheatin' ..."
     

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