Is illicit drug use a victimless crime and should drug use be legalized?

Discussion in 'The Swarm Lounge' started by Whiskey_Clear, Sep 6, 2018.

  1. Whiskey_Clear

    Whiskey_Clear Helluva Engineer

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    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/09/0...al-history-could-decide-if-lives-or-dies.html

    So it appears Nick Cruz’ ultimate fate may be determined in part on the criminal history of his biological mother.

    She was arrested after purchasing crack cocaine while pregnant with him. Which would make him a “drug baby.” This will likely be a consideration when sentencing time comes for him.

    Are drugs really a victimless crime then?
     
  2. GT_05

    GT_05 Helluva Engineer

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    Some people might argue that if drug offenses were treatable by hospitalization instead of incarcerating the offender then he and his sister may have turned out differently.

    I don’t personally believe this, by the way, so don’t yell at me.


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  3. Whiskey_Clear

    Whiskey_Clear Helluva Engineer

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    Not yelling at anyone. Offering up a topic for discussion.

    I’ve personally seen numerous individuals with mental health issues that appeared to be directly related to the physiological ramifications of harmful drugs in their bodies at child birth.

    I’d love to see some scientific studies regarding this. They probably exist but I haven’t searched for them yet.
     
  4. MikeJackets1967

    MikeJackets1967 Helluva Engineer

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    I'm for legalizing all currently illegal narcotics and collecting taxes on them. The Federal Government and the States would make a huge amount of money.
     
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  5. smathis30

    smathis30 Helluva Engineer

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    Obviously with the issues we have with the opioid addiction in the Midwest it's safe to say fully legalizing it isn't going to be a walk in the park and the results something you can see on Disney channel but for some things like Mary Jane I think the push towards legalization or just decriminilization for possession of some things isn't a terrible idea.
     
  6. Whiskey_Clear

    Whiskey_Clear Helluva Engineer

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    I’m open to legalizing mj but there will be some ramifications to even that. Mostly along the same lines as alcohol with regards to DUI.

    Opioids, meth, coke, synthetics all have a much higher cost on society imo than any potential tax revenues.

    What of the implied cost tefsrding Cruz’s actions with regard to being born a drug baby? Do you believe such instances have no causality regarding mental and physical disorders of such children?
     
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  7. MikeJackets1967

    MikeJackets1967 Helluva Engineer

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    You make good points about drug babies and the costs to society(y)
     
  8. RonJohn

    RonJohn Helluva Engineer

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    Is drug use the cause or drug use at unreasonable times? There was a time in American history when people believed the same things about alcohol. Making alcohol illegal simply caused the same types of criminal enterprises currently associated with drugs. Alcohol use while pregnant can cause birth defects also. If you are concerned about drug(and/or) alcohol use while pregnant, then that is what should be addressed. If someone sits on his front porch and smokes marijuana every evening then eats supper and goes to bed is he really a threat to others for doing so?

    There are already laws against driving while under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol.
    There are already laws governing actions against other people(threats, assault, etc) that are prosecuted even when a person is drunk or high when the commit the crimes.

    My overall point is that a person partaking in drugs isn't a threat to anyone(except the user) in and of itself. I don't see why that should be illegal. If they do other things while under the influence of drugs, such as drive, then that is a threat and laws should be set up to protect others from such activities.

    For the record, I am not an illicit drug user.
     
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  9. Whiskey_Clear

    Whiskey_Clear Helluva Engineer

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  10. RonJohn

    RonJohn Helluva Engineer

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    I think blood tests will detect most illicit drugs. Most of the harder ones would be fairly easy to detect whether a person is under the influence. Marijuana stays in the system for a long time, but some levels of THC could be determined by the states to be illegal. It might be the case that in some states a person wouldn't be able to drive for a few days after smoking it, but at least the law would be set up to protect against something that is a threat to others.

    Currently when a person without insurance: Rides a motorcycle without a helmet and crashes, rock climbs and falls, jumps from a roof into a pool and misses, overdoses on alcohol, surfs on top of a car and falls off, etc.....: society pays for their medical bills. Also, even with the current drug laws, if a person overdoses without a means to pay for medical treatments, society already pays the bills. If you want to address that issue, then address the actual issue: People acting irresponsibly without the means to pay for the consequences: not solely as an issue involving drugs.

    I haven't stated that alcohol, cocaine, and meth are equivalent drugs. However, I would compare that to cars. If there was a safe boxy Volvo with very little horsepower, then it would probably be much safer than a Corvette. A person in a Corvette can drive very erratically and endanger other people. That doesn't mean that the government should be in control of deciding what cars a person can drive. In my opinion a person would be stupid to decide to use meth and turn themselves in to a skinny wraith with open picked sores all over their body. However, if that is what they want to do and they are not endangering other people, then I don't see why the government should use force to stop them.
     
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  11. bwelbo

    bwelbo Helluva Engineer

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    Well, the problem with just leaving people alone is that something like 5x as many crimes are committed by people either under the influence or to get money for drugs/alcohol than by clean people. I don’t see how that would materially change based on the legality of those substances.
     
  12. RonJohn

    RonJohn Helluva Engineer

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    Theft and robbery are already illegal. They should be illegal no matter if it is to buy heroin, MD 20/20, or a fancy watch to show off. But it is the act of taking someone else's property that is illegal, not the reason for taking it. Society should not leave people alone when they engage in activity that denies the rights of others, such as the right to not have your own property taken away from you. However, in my opinion, the state should not use force to prevent someone from drinking a beer while watching college football on TV in his living room, smoking a joint in his living room, or shooting heroin in his living room. There are caveats to that, such as if a person is drunk or stoned while watching a 1 year old child and neglecting the child, they should be arrested. As I have stated before I don't smoke joints or shoot heroin. I don't even drink beer while watching football.
     
  13. bwelbo

    bwelbo Helluva Engineer

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    I think you completely missed my point - there is a massive difference in crime rates. By ignoring drug use, you’re essentially okay with their committing of crimes. It’s okay, we’ll arrest and prosecute them...but only after they’ve done something wrong. Tell that to all the victims.
     
  14. RonJohn

    RonJohn Helluva Engineer

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    Between 1919 and 1933 there was a lot of crime associated with alcohol. MANY MANY people were killed because of alcohol. The exact same logic you are using was used then as a reason to maintain a ban on alcohol. --Look at all of the crime alcohol is associated with. Things will get worse if it is made legal.-- There are people who drive while drunk and kill people. There are pregnant women who drink and damage their children before they are born. There are parents who drink and neglect their children so bad they get sick. I don't see a large contingent of people clamoring for prohibition of alcohol again. There are many members of this forum who drink various forms of alcohol and I don't believe they are all heathens who are bound to commit crimes. Drinking alcohol is even in our fight song. If a person is acting responsibly to society and not infringing on the rights of others, the government should not prevent them from doing what they want whether that is drinking Pappy Van Winkle or shooting heroin. If people are not infringing on the rights of the state or others, then the government should not use force against them, period end stop.

    As to arresting people before they have done something wrong, are we now in the Pre-Crime era of Minority Report? Of course we should not arrest anyone before the commit a crime. How do you know someone is going to commit a crime? If two people conspire to rob a bank and drive toward the bank with guns, the police could arrest them for conspiracy to commit a crime if they find out before they arrive at the bank. If police can arrest and detain people simply because they believe someone might commit a crime sometime in the future, then every citizen is in extreme danger of government abuse.
     
  15. bwelbo

    bwelbo Helluva Engineer

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    I would guess a massive amount of crime is committed on behalf of drugs versus alcohol. It’s not the legality of the drug, it’s the effect on you.
     
  16. RonJohn

    RonJohn Helluva Engineer

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    In the 1920s it was the opposite. Much more crime related to alcohol. It seems clear to me that the product itself being illegal is what causes the majority of the crime.

    I think people who use opioids are stupid and put their health and life at risk. Some people think the same about people who ride motorcycles. Some people think the same thing about people who leave their apartments and go into public. I would enforce my beliefs of opioids with my children. I would heavily counsel against their use with my extended family and friends. However, I don't think I or society have a right to point a gun at someone to prevent them from voluntarily using them.
     
  17. bwelbo

    bwelbo Helluva Engineer

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    States that legalized pot say hello.
     
  18. RonJohn

    RonJohn Helluva Engineer

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    So where are actual reports that say that states with legalized pot have more crime? The Denver DA released a statement saying that crime had increased, but the situations and studies he cited left out important facts. For example, he stated that the murder rate in Aurora more than doubled, but a deputy police officer said that the change from 11 to 25 only placed the murder rate at the typical rate instead of the outlier of 11 the year before. There have been similar "reports" from the legalization crowd that indicate that crime rates have dropped by as much as 14%. I have not seen any purely objective studies. The anti-legalization and the legalization crowds both use "interesting" methods of analyzing data that just happens to "prove" what they want it to.
     
  19. bwelbo

    bwelbo Helluva Engineer

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    I would try Google.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/opin...galize-nationally-jeff-hunt-column/536010001/

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/20/us/colorado-marijuana-and-crime/index.html

    I visited Colorado on vacation a couple years ago. At multiple restaurants, the waitress had to be replaced because she was so out of it she couldn't keep up with what was going on. There was a constant zombie-like section of the population just sitting around - typically 20-somethings, looking homeless, but in a haze. Of course my experience is just anecdotal, but I don't have any reason to doubt the statistics.
     
  20. RonJohn

    RonJohn Helluva Engineer

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    Did you read those articles? One is an opinion piece. The other says there is data, but that the data is inconclusive. For example the number of car accident deaths attributed to marijuana multiplied by x9, but they didn't treat for thc often prior to legalization, so how does anyone know what the baseline was?

    I have googled and I have not found one good study that shows anything conclusive positively or negatively. I have found plenty that are inconclusive. I have found plenty that show legalization was good, but they don't use objective data. I have found plenty that show legalization was bad, but they don't use objective data either. I try to read and understand instead of rely on the headlines to form an opinion.

    As to a waitress losing her job because she preferred to be stoned, would it be better if she lost her job because she preferred to be drunk or because she preferred to watch reruns of Family Feud instead of going to work? People make bad choices all of the time. That doesn't mean the government should use force to stop them from watching reruns instead of working or use force to stop them from smoking a joint.

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