GT - competing at a higher level

first&ten

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
880
IMO, education doesn't really matter. I didn't decide to go to Tech b/c I knew I would get a "good/challenging education"...I went b/c I knew I'd be able to get a good paying job after college. Players at factory schools can still get jobs and really quality jobs at that - so our argument that students will get a "good education" doesn't mean much when a prospective athlete can get the same promise of a quality job with an easier road to get there.

Call it what you want but a strong network by far outweighs a "good education" when it comes to post-graduation.
Bingo, ugag has a strong jobs network and makes it well known to grads & non grads.I would assume Tech has one too, but I don't hear it advertised.
 

Techster

Helluva Engineer
Messages
15,848
Ok, so the question here is what QB worked out. Donnie Davis??? I do not think so!!
So just because they are good in HS, does not mean they will be great in college....

Joe Hamilton & Shawn Jones were left off your list....

So I find it interesting that the two left off the list are two of the better ones. Maybe all the press coming from HS does not mean they will be great! Case in point you mentioned Donnie Davis

Dang...wasn't aware I was supposed to name EVERY QB that came through tech. Thanks for adding more ammo to my point though.

Joe Hamilton was actually one of the top athletes in the Southeast when he as being recruited. Much like JeT, or the Michael Barrett QB we're recruiting from South GA, Hamilton was probably what would be considered a 4 star recruit (they didn't give out star rankings back then...it was before the days that rivals/scout/247 took over the recruiting world):

Named the South Carolina prep ?Player of the Year? by Jeff Whitaker?s Deep South Football, which gave him a 10.0 rating . . . Selected Mid-Atlantic Offensive Player of the Year by SuperPreps, which tabbed him the No. 3 player in South Carolina . . . Named to Blue Chips Illustrated Dream Team all-America squad . . . Ranked the No. 1 athlete in the ACC Region by Blue Chips . . . . Tabbed the nation?s No. 5 combination running-passing quarterback by National Recruiting Advisor . . . Rated the No. 28 prospect in the Mid-Atlantic Region by Tom Lemming Report

Hamilton wasn't some 2 star under the radar recruit. He was a highly rated QB/athelete.

Shawn Jones to this day is actually still my favorite GT player. As far as his recruiting goes, I really can't tell you much about it. I was in elementary school when Shawn Jones was our QB, and I didn't follow recruiting or sports all that much then.

As for Donnie Davis's career at GT, I would advise you to do some research on it. His "failures" were not due to his talent or abilities. If I talked more about it then I would have to get into "he who shall not be named". He was more a victim of circumstance rather than talent.
 
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2,034
So I will post this again here. Going back to the beginning ot this thread and that if we ran a different offense our recruiting would improve.

Just for fun, I took a look at our recruiting under Gailey and Johnson. I used Rivals as my base and that being said, recruiting rankings are weighed by class sizes in this system. Here is what I found. If you average all of CPJ recruiting classes by ranking, it comes out with a rank of 51. When you average all of Gailey's , you come out with a ranking of 51. Hmmm. Now CPJ has one awful class back in 2013 and Gailey has that 2007 class. 2013 was ranked 84 and 2007 was ranked 18. Take those out and here is what you get. CPJ rank 47 Gailey rank 57. So what does all this mean. Well whether it is CPJs offense or Pro style, we seem to get the same players no matter what.
 

Techster

Helluva Engineer
Messages
15,848
So I will post this again here. Going back to the beginning ot this thread and that if we ran a different offense our recruiting would improve.

Just for fun, I took a look at our recruiting under Gailey and Johnson. I used Rivals as my base and that being said, recruiting rankings are weighed by class sizes in this system. Here is what I found. If you average all of CPJ recruiting classes by ranking, it comes out with a rank of 51. When you average all of Gailey's , you come out with a ranking of 51. Hmmm. Now CPJ has one awful class back in 2013 and Gailey has that 2007 class. 2013 was ranked 84 and 2007 was ranked 18. Take those out and here is what you get. CPJ rank 47 Gailey rank 57. So what does all this mean. Well whether it is CPJs offense or Pro style, we seem to get the same players no matter what.

Be careful with the rankings from the 90's and early 2000's. Rivals and Scout were in their nascent stages, and 247 didn't even exist. Rankings were shoddy back then and a lot of kids were 2 stars or NR because those services weren't staffed like they are now. It's not like now when all of a sudden kids get ranked as early as their freshmen year.
 

GTfan4Life

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
189
Be careful with the rankings from the 90's and early 2000's. Rivals and Scout were in their nascent stages, and 247 didn't even exist. Rankings were shoddy back then and a lot of kids were 2 stars or NR because those services weren't staffed like they are now. It's not like now when all of a sudden kids get ranked as early as their freshmen year.

Not trying to cause friction - I am NOT a recruiting guru. But, haven't you been using data from the 90's and 2000's to make your argument?
 

Techster

Helluva Engineer
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15,848
Messages
2,034
Be careful with the rankings from the 90's and early 2000's. Rivals and Scout were in their nascent stages, and 247 didn't even exist. Rankings were shoddy back then and a lot of kids were 2 stars or NR because those services weren't staffed like they are now. It's not like now when all of a sudden kids get ranked as early as their freshmen year.

Just using the only source to make comparisons. After having watched Tech football for 48 years, I can just tell you from an eye test, we have never been able to get the big timers to come to Tech. Oh we have had some great players and we can all point to 1990 and say how about Bobby Ross. Well keep in mind he brought in some JUCO's and a lot of the base players, Seniors were Curry players.
Fact is I keep saying that recruiting and rankings are about 10% accurate. You then say what about Alabama. Well why don't we just acknowledge that Saban is a great coach. Fact is what Alabama QB is currently starting in the NFL.....none.
 

Techster

Helluva Engineer
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15,848
Just using the only source to make comparisons. After having watched Tech football for 48 years, I can just tell you from an eye test, we have never been able to get the big timers to come to Tech. Oh we have had some great players and we can all point to 1990 and say how about Bobby Ross. Well keep in mind he brought in some JUCO's and a lot of the base players, Seniors were Curry players.
Fact is I keep saying that recruiting and rankings are about 10% accurate. You then say what about Alabama. Well why don't we just acknowledge that Saban is a great coach. Fact is what Alabama QB is currently starting in the NFL.....none.

I agree to an extent. Recruiting rankings aren't the end all be all of football, but there is absolutely a good deal of merit in what they do. Extensive research has been done on this very topic. Those services don't always get it right, but they get it right enough times that it justifies fans using them as reference.

Are there outliers? Of course, and GT is one them. We've won more than our recruiting rankings would suggest. Wisconsin is another school. But for the most part, Conference champions usually recruit to the top of their conference, and no team has won a national championship in the BCS and Playoff era (which coincidentally coincides with the rise of recruiting services) without multiple top 10 classes.
 

Techster

Helluva Engineer
Messages
15,848
Just using the only source to make comparisons. After having watched Tech football for 48 years, I can just tell you from an eye test, we have never been able to get the big timers to come to Tech. Oh we have had some great players and we can all point to 1990 and say how about Bobby Ross. Well keep in mind he brought in some JUCO's and a lot of the base players, Seniors were Curry players.
Fact is I keep saying that recruiting and rankings are about 10% accurate. You then say what about Alabama. Well why don't we just acknowledge that Saban is a great coach. Fact is what Alabama QB is currently starting in the NFL.....none.


BTW...this article covers this whole recruiting rankings discussion pretty well. The articles they link to are a pretty great read:

https://www.sbnation.com/college-fo...6/national-signing-day-rankings-ncaa-football
 

Sideways

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,589
I want to start this post off by saying I do really like Paul Johnson. I think he's a great guy and I've truly enjoyed seeing him coach at GT. I understand his winning percentage is up there when compared to prior head coaches. He's done well - for the most part - for us.

Do I expect us to win the NC every year? No - I understand GT is not built for what it takes to do that and I'm fine with it. However, I do expect us to compete for the ACC and certainly our division almost every year. Losing 3 of the last 4 to Duke is really disheartening, among other things.

How do we get better? We all know it starts with recruiting. It is a struggle for us right now. With the system we run, whether we want to admit it or not, we are limited in the types of players we can target. It's an ugly truth. Offensively, we're never going to get "big time" QBs, running backs, receivers, etc to come play for us. It's just not going to happen. I ran into Lee Corso in the Orlando Int'l Airport about 4 years ago. We made some casual conversation about college football. He made that comment to me regarding recruiting and our system at GT. I didn't want to believe him at the time but it's the truth.

If we end up getting rid of Paul Johnson then no I don't have the magic answer for his replacement. I just feel that 10+ years into his tenure, it's time for something different.

An interesting post and you made the critical point that recruiting is a struggle. It has always been a struggle due to the factors that have endlessly been debated from academics to commitment of resources and everything in between. Changing coaches is not going to be a game changer that will address your concerns until these "other factors" are addressed by the Georgia Tech community specifically the Hill and the athletic department. It is a problem that can't be solved by simply changing offensive philosophy or coaches.
 

Sideways

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,589
There's probably some truth to this, for sure. I wonder if other coaches negatively recruit against us by saying they'll have to defend it in the spring and fall and risk getting injured, etc.
I guess they could go to all that bother by negatively recruiting against us by talking about defending the triple option in practice or they could do it the easy way by getting a calculus textbook and setting it down on the living room table and saying"Think you could pass this?" They could even go to the trouble of displaying typical geeks and Hill nerds next to the hotties they have on their campus. They could compare starting salaries for Tech grads to their graduates...oops not that one.
 

StingU2

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
192
LOL. OK buddy. CPJ was hired in December of 2007, that offer was given out on November of 2008. It was CPJ's offer, not an "inherited" offer...whatever that means. CPJ inherited a top 15 Pro Style QB in Sean Renfree when he was hired in 2007 (who happened to get drafted by the Falcons and play a few years in the NFL). CPJ flat out told him he didn't want him...Remember the infamous "Don't want him, don't need him" quote? CPJ isn't one to take a kid, no matter how good he is, if he doesn't fit our offense. BTW, and ironically, Winston ended up scoring on an option play against us. He's QB with abilities to run the option, he just prefers to use his legs to buy time in the pocket or break down defenses only if he doesn't have an open receiver.

Winston may not have taken our offer seriously, but I'm pretty sure CPJ isn't one to hand out offers for the heck of it. Seriously, the things some of you make up to defend GT is beyond silly. Our offense has performed beyond the talent level we've recruited, and not many teams have stopped our offense cold. So elite guys don't want to play in it...it's a pretty well known by now, but so what? Making up something try and defend it only hurts your point.

CPJ also inherited Steven Threet, who transferred to Michigan to never be heard from again.
 

4shotB

Helluva Engineer
Retired Staff
Messages
4,018
IMO, education doesn't really matter. I didn't decide to go to Tech b/c I knew I would get a "good/challenging education"...I went b/c I knew I'd be able to get a good paying job after college. Players at factory schools can still get jobs and really quality jobs at that - so our argument that students will get a "good education" doesn't mean much when a prospective athlete can get the same promise of a quality job with an easier road to get there.

Call it what you want but a strong network by far outweighs a "good education" when it comes to post-graduation.

This is the truth. I have done business with/became friends with 2 guys who played FB in the SEC. At places we call "factories". They were very succesful sales people and were able to utilize their alumni network well. And, without apology, exploit their "celebrity" status in their states to make sales. One of these guys, I hunt deer and turkey on his farm in his south Georgia. Stay at his lake house on Lake XXX and bass fish. Or have utilized his beach house from time to time.

When I read most posts about how the typical guy who plays FB at an SEC school ends up at McDonald's or living under a bridge, I just have to laugh. I think if you are halfway intelligent and have a strong work ethic, playing FB at a school where FB is king is the kind of 'ticket punching" endeavor that getting an engineering degree grom GT is or getting any kind of degree from an Ivy school.
 

UgagSucks

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
173
One thing we call all ask ourselves is has our football program's performance improved since PJ has been here? In other words, have we improved from his first 3 years to his last 3 years?


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flea77

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
924
This is the truth. I have done business with/became friends with 2 guys who played FB in the SEC. At places we call "factories". They were very succesful sales people and were able to utilize their alumni network well. And, without apology, exploit their "celebrity" status in their states to make sales. One of these guys, I hunt deer and turkey on his farm in his south Georgia. Stay at his lake house on Lake XXX and bass fish. Or have utilized his beach house from time to time.

When I read most posts about how the typical guy who plays FB at an SEC school ends up at McDonald's or living under a bridge, I just have to laugh. I think if you are halfway intelligent and have a strong work ethic, playing FB at a school where FB is king is the kind of 'ticket punching" endeavor that getting an engineering degree grom GT is or getting any kind of degree from an Ivy school.
Like you said you are friends w " 2 guys" who played and are very successful. I know many who I played with at a " factory" who did not get the " celebrity" status... the fact is a degree from GT is valuable. There are only so many " celebrity jobs" available.
 

Skeptic

Helluva Engineer
Messages
6,358
I want to start this post off by saying I do really like Paul Johnson. I think he's a great guy and I've truly enjoyed seeing him coach at GT. I understand his winning percentage is up there when compared to prior head coaches. He's done well - for the most part - for us.

Do I expect us to win the NC every year? No - I understand GT is not built for what it takes to do that and I'm fine with it. However, I do expect us to compete for the ACC and certainly our division almost every year. Losing 3 of the last 4 to Duke is really disheartening, among other things.

How do we get better? We all know it starts with recruiting. It is a struggle for us right now. With the system we run, whether we want to admit it or not, we are limited in the types of players we can target. It's an ugly truth. Offensively, we're never going to get "big time" QBs, running backs, receivers, etc to come play for us. It's just not going to happen. I ran into Lee Corso in the Orlando Int'l Airport about 4 years ago. We made some casual conversation about college football. He made that comment to me regarding recruiting and our system at GT. I didn't want to believe him at the time but it's the truth.

If we end up getting rid of Paul Johnson then no I don't have the magic answer for his replacement. I just feel that 10+ years into his tenure, it's time for something different.
I don't know about your conclusion. I do know that using Lee Corso as a sounding board and expecting Herbstreit-type analysis is the real definition of insanity.
 

SoMsJacket

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
131
If you don't believe that the 3O offense is a significant detriment to recruiting higher rated recruits on both O and D, you are sorely out of touch with today's High School prospects. As having a son that recently graduated for an SEC school and personally know a number of players, nobody wants to play or practice against a "high school" offense. They all have visions of the NFL. You can partially blame it on their perception of the O, don't want the course load, negative recruiting, but "It's Real".
 

4shotB

Helluva Engineer
Retired Staff
Messages
4,018
Like you said you are friends w " 2 guys" who played and are very successful. I know many who I played with at a " factory" who did not get the " celebrity" status... the fact is a degree from GT is valuable. There are only so many " celebrity jobs" available.

Flea, I don't think it's a either/or (or binomial) situation. If you are an idiot who can play college level FB, you are not going to GT. You will go to a factory school, play FB. Then disappear. The paradox is...any student (athlete or not) who can get into and "do" GT has the drive to succeed even if they choose to go to a SEC school or equivalent. I have hired a lot of people in my day. Some of the best people I have had working for me attended schools that most of us don't consider tier 1 (GT/Ivy/Stanford/etc.) schools.Don't get me wrong..GT was a very good choice for me. But as I have travelled around in my career, I found I was living in neighborhoods that people who attended "lesser schools" also lived in. In other words, there was never an "all GT" neighborhood where us smart people lived and all the rest had to live somewhere else.

don't get me wrong...I love my GT engineering degree. I realize, more as I get older, that it is something that only a very small % of people can achieve. However, I also realize that you can be succesful no matter where you can to school if you have what it takes to do so. Sort of like you can play in the NFL no matter where you play college FB.... if you have what it takes. You don't have to go to OSU or Bama. If you are good enough, athletically or academically, the pros will find you. Success isn't about the name of the college on the diploma....it's about the name of the individual on the diploma.
 

UgagSucks

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
173
If you don't believe that the 3O offense is a significant detriment to recruiting higher rated recruits on both O and D, you are sorely out of touch with today's High School prospects. As having a son that recently graduated for an SEC school and personally know a number of players, nobody wants to play or practice against a "high school" offense. They all have visions of the NFL. You can partially blame it on their perception of the O, don't want the course load, negative recruiting, but "It's Real".

Yes! I really feel "it's real" as well and the offensive scheme itself keeps us from getting a look at many potential recruits.


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