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General thread about gun control/gun legislation

Discussion in 'The Swarm Lounge' started by Whiskey_Clear, Mar 19, 2018.

  1. Whiskey_Clear

    Whiskey_Clear Helluva Engineer

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    We have discussed 2A in general in threads related to mass shootings. I think 2A deserves a thread of its own so as not to get bogged down with the particulars of separate incidents when they occur.

    Below is a link related to a New York Democrat who affirms 2A as a check on our government.

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/03/19/democrat-suggests-second-amendment-remedy-vs-trump.html

    Though I would suggest voting, relying on our branches to check each other, and Constitutional Conventions be used first and foremost to reign in our federal and state governments....I agree that 2A is an ultimate last check on government corruption and violations of individual freedoms.

    That’s just one component of 2A of course. Even more important is the freedom to defend ourselves from violence.

    But it’s nice to see a Dem embrace 2A and Constitutional Rights. Doesn’t happen often.:cigar:
     
    Yoda, quadf and bwelbo like this.
  2. bwelbo

    bwelbo Helluva Engineer

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    I think there are 2 main threads I see with how the 2nd amendment is viewed:
    1) Self-defense
    2) Protection against an over-reaching government

    I admit to being one of those who think that in this day and age (2) is more of a paranoid tin-foil hat view. I don't mean that to sound as bad as it does, but there it is.

    Anyway, with (1) I feel there is a tremendous lack of understanding by people who don't like guns to even know how they work. I think this is where the NRA is totally failing. Instead of making provocative, insulting videos, if they made weekly 3 minute videos talking about a particular topic. Like "what is an assault rifle versus what is a semi-automatic gun". Not an hour long, but something watchable. Educate people. Then it makes for an easily copy/paste thing for folks to share to help those who lack a deep understanding. For example, many in my family have been spreading fake news and misleading anti-gun propaganda over the last month. I think their hearts are in the right place, but they literally don't understand what they are saying. They post things like 'Ban assault rifles - we don't need weapons of war on the streets' and 'when the 2nd amendment was written, it was only muskets'. They have no idea that all semi-automatic guns work the same way as 'assault rifles' and that muskets were weapons of war back then. ...just as an example.

    Thankfully, I'm seeing a lot more these days about hardening schools, and mental illness / red flag laws. I think these are 2 of the biggest most impactful changes we can make. The NRA created the background check database lets not forget, and they pioneered the School Shield program (best practices for securing schools) SIX YEARS ago. When they first released the School Shield framework, they were largely ridiculed...but yet how right they were.
     
    smathis30 likes this.
  3. Whiskey_Clear

    Whiskey_Clear Helluva Engineer

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    @bwelbo

    NRA does that.









    That’s just a few covering a broad range of topics.
     
    bwelbo likes this.
  4. TampaBuzz

    TampaBuzz Helluva Engineer

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    I believe in the 2nd amendment; however, I also believe in strict limits on the number and types of weapons that we can own. Does that make me pro- or anti- NRA?
     
  5. collegeballfan

    collegeballfan Helluva Engineer

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    The Second Amendment: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    The Supreme Court in District of Columbia v. Heller confirmed that the rights of the Second Amendment adhered to individuals. The main point was that the right was for self defense.

    Look at the Amendment itself; "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State...". The right to keep and bear arms is to insure that there was a pool of able bodied, armed, men that could be conscripted to secure the existence of the state, not protect the individual from the state. (See the Heller decision). The purpose of the amendment is not to protect you from the government, but protect the government from you. The Constitution provides for you being armed to give the government an armed resource to draw upon to insure its survival. Whether you like it or not is another discussion.

    From Justice Scalia's majority opinion in Heller:
    "Held: The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home."
    Note this explanation "...traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home."

    And remember, the Constitution says what the Supreme Court says it says.
     
  6. bwelbo

    bwelbo Helluva Engineer

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    Maybe. :) The Supreme Court once said separate but equal was pretty cool. They also said in Kelo that if the government can get more tax revenue out of a private entity through a different avenue, they have the right to confiscate your property. They also invented a right to privacy in Roe vs. Wade. What privacy has to do with keeping or ending your unborn child's life is another discussion.

    I say all this randomness to say I'm more concerned with the legal soundness of a decision than the decision itself. Just think of the all the 5-4 rulings where one side of jurists aggressively and vigorously disagrees with the other side. The Supreme Court for better or worse has become like everything else these days - its political and the political majority wins.
     
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  7. Whiskey_Clear

    Whiskey_Clear Helluva Engineer

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    It makes you anti 2A
     
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  8. Whiskey_Clear

    Whiskey_Clear Helluva Engineer

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    @collegeballfan

    So if the next SCOTUS ruling on 2A determines howitzers and tanks may be legally obtained by citizens you won’t object. Good little citizen you.

    The bill of rights, including 2A, were written to protect states and citizens from an over reaching federal government. Without which the Constitution would never have been ratified.
     
  9. TampaBuzz

    TampaBuzz Helluva Engineer

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    I don't think so. I think it puts me in company with Justice Antonin Scalia - who was generally considered to be the most conservative of Supreme Court justices. I am sure you have seen it before, but I will share his thoughts on the 2nd amendment just in case your missed it. Justice Antonin Scalia, states: “Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited…”. It is “…not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose.” Personally, I think his logic makes perfect sense.
     
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  10. Whiskey_Clear

    Whiskey_Clear Helluva Engineer

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    @TampaBuzz

    I liked Scalia but he was not the father of all things Constitutional.

    I’ll agree to some of what you post. Weapons of mass destruction imo are not a part of 2A for instance. I’d also put high explosives as not covered. But pretty much everything cops can utilize is imo.
     
  11. bwelbo

    bwelbo Helluva Engineer

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    Yea, I mean the principle of what Tampa just said I agree with. You shouldn't need a tank or 1,000 guns. But those are really just straw man positions (not talking to Tampa here accusing him of that...just saying) that don't have any real bearing on trying to reduce gun violence in the United States.
     
  12. Whiskey_Clear

    Whiskey_Clear Helluva Engineer

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    Caveat...SWAT units do utilize shaped charges to breach structures. I don’t think 2A covers citizens’ needs for same. That’s one of the few exceptions of what I cited previously.
     
  13. Whiskey_Clear

    Whiskey_Clear Helluva Engineer

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    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...capital-brazilians-are-ready-to-buy-some-guns

    As other nations begin to move away from failed gun control measures....our nation’s gun grabbers gear up to ban guns.

    Gun control leads to an unarmed populace of victims. But the same liberals who witness socialism fail around the world and think it will succeed here...are the same that see gun control fail around the world but think it can succeed here.

    God save us from socialists.
     
  14. MWBATL

    MWBATL Helluva Engineer

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    You just don't understand. It will be *different* here! Trust them, they know best!
     
    Whiskey_Clear likes this.
  15. Whiskey_Clear

    Whiskey_Clear Helluva Engineer

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  16. Whiskey_Clear

    Whiskey_Clear Helluva Engineer

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  17. Whiskey_Clear

    Whiskey_Clear Helluva Engineer

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  18. bwelbo

    bwelbo Helluva Engineer

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    The worse video is that poor bastard a few years ago that is supposed to be a cop, lying on the sidewalk begging for his life as the terrorist gunned him down. The cops often aren't even allowed to be armed.
     
  19. bwelbo

    bwelbo Helluva Engineer

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    Here is the most interesting part to me:
    From 2006 to 2015, the National Instant Criminal Background Check System denied gun purchases by 826,144 people. But all those denials led to only 488 prosecutions in the whole 10-year period – fewer than 50 a year. Less than half of these ended in convictions.

    Law enforcement NEEDS TO DO THEIR DAD GUMMED JOBS. Freaking pathetic.
     
    awbuzz likes this.
  20. bwelbo

    bwelbo Helluva Engineer

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    Here is one of those student tools David Hogg - note, NSFW language. The condescension layered on top of ignorance is amazing. When no sorts of gun confiscation laws are passed AGAIN, I wonder if they will ever slow down long enough to self-reflect and try to see if in fact they have been wrong about everything. Its already been 5 weeks and crickets.
     

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