Former GT DB Meiko Dotson transfers to FSU

Milwaukee

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Part of the high turnover in yrs past. It is still fairly remarkable how PJ had as good record as he did with average recruiting and high turnover.

Incredible football IQ. That guy at a factory where recruiting takes care of itself would win multiple titles. If Frost doesn’t work out at Nebraska they’d be stupid not to go lure PJ into that gig, that’s just my opinion. It’s a PERFECT fit. Not sure their fan base would allow the hire to begin with due to the “negative” myths but PJ at Nebraska I could literally inject into my veins.
Sorry for the derail.

Really happy for Meiko.
 

jgtengineer

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Dotson got kinda buried but had talent but you jave to remember he transferes aftwr we picked up most of the current dbs
 

billga99

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PJ would be successful wherever he went. But even at a football factory, he would not be able to recruit at an elite level. The 4 and 5 star recruits want to go to a program which enhances their chances to go to the NFL and the Triple Option clearly doesn't do that on the offense side of the ball. PJ's most talented offenses were 2008 and 2009 where he leveraged the 2007 recruiting class and 2014 where he grab a true 4 star QB (and from Alabama to boot...though obviously they were recruiting him for DB). But there is no doubt he would be successful at Nebraska or wherever he decides to go in the future. The one wildcard for any football (or basketball) coach moving forward is going to be transfers if they allow one transfer with no waiting period. You really would need to scrutinize the elite athletes that aren't playing at the school they were originally recruited to play at. But I am sure there will be fairly strict rules regarding poaching (though I am sure most coaches would be creative enough to get around that).
 

Milwaukee

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PJ would be successful wherever he went. But even at a football factory, he would not be able to recruit at an elite level. The 4 and 5 star recruits want to go to a program which enhances their chances to go to the NFL and the Triple Option clearly doesn't do that on the offense side of the ball. PJ's most talented offenses were 2008 and 2009 where he leveraged the 2007 recruiting class and 2014 where he grab a true 4 star QB (and from Alabama to boot...though obviously they were recruiting him for DB). But there is no doubt he would be successful at Nebraska or wherever he decides to go in the future. The one wildcard for any football (or basketball) coach moving forward is going to be transfers if they allow one transfer with no waiting period. You really would need to scrutinize the elite athletes that aren't playing at the school they were originally recruited to play at. But I am sure there will be fairly strict rules regarding poaching (though I am sure most coaches would be creative enough to get around that).

This is false. Ya know what’s cool and what players love? Winning.

If he was at FSU, Auburn, Nebraska they’d kill in recruiting. After the 09 season we were the cock of the walk, it was cool to play for us. PJ just can’t recruit worth a damn. If you eliminate that hurdle it’s go-time. I’m an avg Joe qb on the sofa but do you realize what I could’ve hauled in ‘10 and ‘11 based off 08 and 09 results? A bad recruiter could’ve gotten a great haul. That’s how bad of a recruiter PJ was, for perspective. Mean mf’in qb alpha male, mean mf’in running back (bb), mean mf’in WR (best in the nation imo), and he still couldn’t pull top tier talent. You may say he couldn’t pull because of the system he ran and it’s detractors, but that wouldn’t be accurate. Kids love winning. 08 and especially 09 teams had swag that was contagious and kids loved. Our staff still couldn’t capitalize.
 

gtrower

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This is false. Ya know what’s cool and what players love? Winning.

If he was at FSU, Auburn, Nebraska they’d kill in recruiting. After the 09 season we were the cock of the walk, it was cool to play for us. PJ just can’t recruit worth a damn. If you eliminate that hurdle it’s go-time. I’m an avg Joe qb on the sofa but do you realize what I could’ve hauled in ‘10 and ‘11 based off 08 and 09 results? A bad recruiter could’ve gotten a great haul. That’s how bad of a recruiter PJ was, for perspective. Mean mf’in qb alpha male, mean mf’in running back (bb), mean mf’in WR (best in the nation imo), and he still couldn’t pull top tier talent. You may say he couldn’t pull because of the system he ran and it’s detractors, but that wouldn’t be accurate. Kids love winning. 08 and especially 09 teams had swag that was contagious and kids loved. Our staff still couldn’t capitalize.

Uhh... CPJ’s ‘10 class looked a lot like CGC’s ‘20 class that everybody’s been creaming their pants about. And that was with Russell and maybe half the recruiting resources CGC has right now.

CPJ wasn’t a great recruiter but don’t just make crap up to demean him. You could have literally chosen any other class.
 
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YJMD

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Uhh... CPJ’s ‘10 class looked a lot like CGC’s ‘20 class that everybody’s been creaming their pants about. And that was with Russell and maybe half the recruiting resources CGC has right now.

CPJ wasn’t a great recruiter but don’t just make crap up to demean him. You could have literally chosen any other class.

No it didn't, but anyway I agree there is nothing to be gained from looking back at CPJs recruiting.
 

lv20gt

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Uhh... CPJ’s ‘10 class looked a lot like CGC’s ‘20 class that everybody’s been creaming their pants about.

Not really. By both 247 and rivals that class was ranked 43rd. The 2020 class was ranked 27th by 247 and 24th by rivals. Using 247, the site I prefer, Gibbs is significantly higher rated than anyone from the 2010 class, and Sims is the second highest rated recruit from both classes combined. In general, the 2020 class had 5 of the top 8 rated recruits from those two classes combined. Looking at the top 19 recruits (the number which the 2010 class had), the average ranking for 2010 was .8634. The average ranking for 2020 was .8808. The 2020 class is pretty clearly our best class since the 2007 class.

The reason the 2010 class at the time seemed so good was because most of the top players in that class were the defensive ones. Louis Young, Anthony Williams, Denzel McCoy, and Ryan Ayers were the 4 four stars and they were all on the defensive side of the ball. Overall our 6 highest rated recruits were 4 stars, and at that time people were even more convinced that rankings for offensive recruits didn't mean anything. This was after the 08/09 seasons where we had such good offensive success, and people didn't realize just how much of that was due to the raw talent of Nesbitt/Dwyer/Thomas/Allen so the weakness of that class on the offensive side of the ball was underplayed.
 

alagold

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Not really. By both 247 and rivals that class was ranked 43rd. The 2020 class was ranked 27th by 247 and 24th by rivals. Using 247, the site I prefer, Gibbs is significantly higher rated than anyone from the 2010 class, and Sims is the second highest rated recruit from both classes combined. In general, the 2020 class had 5 of the top 8 rated recruits from those two classes combined. Looking at the top 19 recruits (the number which the 2010 class had), the average ranking for 2010 was .8634. The average ranking for 2020 was .8808. The 2020 class is pretty clearly our best class since the 2007 class.

The reason the 2010 class at the time seemed so good was because most of the top players in that class were the defensive ones. Louis Young, Anthony Williams, Denzel McCoy, and Ryan Ayers were the 4 four stars and they were all on the defensive side of the ball. Overall our 6 highest rated recruits were 4 stars, and at that time people were even more convinced that rankings for offensive recruits didn't mean anything. This was after the 08/09 seasons where we had such good offensive success, and people didn't realize just how much of that was due to the raw talent of Nesbitt/Dwyer/Thomas/Allen so the weakness of that class on the offensive side of the ball was underplayed.

Interesting you mention those 4 top recruits from '10.In Mccoy,Ayers and Williams we got almost ZIP use.. If you look at most of PJs classes, guys at top were little producers.Still did ok overall,until the ACC caught up.
 

gtrower

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Not really. By both 247 and rivals that class was ranked 43rd. The 2020 class was ranked 27th by 247 and 24th by rivals. Using 247, the site I prefer, Gibbs is significantly higher rated than anyone from the 2010 class, and Sims is the second highest rated recruit from both classes combined. In general, the 2020 class had 5 of the top 8 rated recruits from those two classes combined. Looking at the top 19 recruits (the number which the 2010 class had), the average ranking for 2010 was .8634. The average ranking for 2020 was .8808. The 2020 class is pretty clearly our best class since the 2007 class.

The reason the 2010 class at the time seemed so good was because most of the top players in that class were the defensive ones. Louis Young, Anthony Williams, Denzel McCoy, and Ryan Ayers were the 4 four stars and they were all on the defensive side of the ball. Overall our 6 highest rated recruits were 4 stars, and at that time people were even more convinced that rankings for offensive recruits didn't mean anything. This was after the 08/09 seasons where we had such good offensive success, and people didn't realize just how much of that was due to the raw talent of Nesbitt/Dwyer/Thomas/Allen so the weakness of that class on the offensive side of the ball was underplayed.

1) you shouldn’t be looking off 247 for those old classes. For instance Bostic is unrated on 247 composite but a 4* on rivals. That right there is enough to skew things badly.

2) You shouldn’t be looking at the Top 19 recruits if the 2010 class only had 19. You’re including a kicker in that for 2010 crying out loud. And removing all the weaker reaches in the 2020 class. Heavily biasing it towards the bigger class.

3) If the 2010 class had been as big as the 2020 class it would have been ranked very similarly. Fill it out with 5 middle of the pack guys and it’s easily Top 30 accounting for the ratings of the Top 20 guys in the class (as the services do).
 

lv20gt

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1) you shouldn’t be looking off 247 for those old classes. For instance Bostic is unrated on 247 composite but a 4* on rivals. That right there is enough to skew things badly.

I mentioned rivals rankings for just that reason. Rivals also has a similar difference in rankings for the two classes.

2) You shouldn’t be looking at the Top 19 recruits if the 2010 class only had 19. You’re including a kicker in that for 2010 crying out loud. And removing all the weaker reaches in the 2020 class. Heavily biasing it towards the bigger class.

So then look at the top 18 or top 17. It's not going to change the comparison. As far as dropping the weaker players isn't biased. It's reality. Not every player plays the same amount so it doesn't make sense to go strictly by an average rating to evaluate. It's why ranking services don't just use average star rating to rank. Adding another player at worse means you have someone else who doesn't contribute at all. It doesn't "cancel out" the addition of the top rated player. For instance, if you had a class of 15 vs a class of those same exact 15 but also add 10 others, the second class cannot be worse. Worst case scenario is that the 10 extra are scrubs and both cases are left with the same 15. More likely those extra 10 contains players that will contribute and so are a benefit to the second case.

3) If the 2010 class had been as big as the 2020 class it would have been ranked very similarly. Fill it out with 5 middle of the pack guys and it’s easily Top 30 accounting for the ratings of the Top 20 guys in the class (as the services do).

But it wasn't as big, which isn't a difference you can hand waive away. Yes, if you add players that the class didn't actually have it would be top 30. But it didn't feature those guys, and so wasn't top 30. You seem to just want to look at average rating and want to neglect that recruiting is also a volume game. Two classes that have the same average rating, but one features 10 more recruits aren't the same class, especially if the larger class has more top end players. 2010 was a significantly smaller class, featured lower top end talent, a worse average,
 

LibertyTurns

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The history lessons from 2010, 2014, etc are interesting but it ain’t gonna do a damn thing to impact our players in 2020. Half the team or more has changed out this year. Next year it will be 85-90%. Year four you’re going to have to get your slide rule dusted off to figure out the percentage of players still on the team from the CPJ regime.
 

gtrower

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@lv20gt

Well we’re going to ignore 247 ratings here obviously. A site that didn’t exist in 2010 and retroactively gives a rating of 0 to one of the top recruits in the class.

So any class that can take 25 is automatically better than one that can only take 17? That’s a weird take. So any coach who RSs a lot is automatically a bad recruiter.

Top 5 recruit avg
2020: 5.84
2010: 5.80

Top 10 recruit avg
2020: 5.76
2010: 5.75

Top 15 recruit avg
2020: 5.71
2010: 5.69

More top end talent is debatable as well. Gibbs is obviously the jewel of either class. But 2010 had more 4* players (5 vs 4) and more Top 250 players (4 vs 2). If we had room the 2010 class could have filled in with three or four 5.5/5.6 guys (guys that GA is littered with) and been ranked near identical. The fact that CGC had more room to take these guys than CPJ did doesn’t automatically make it a better class.

You’re just wrong here. Not only because you’re analysis is flawed, but you missed the point of my post - CPJ absolutely capitalized on his ‘08/‘09 success in the 2010 recruiting class. The momentum didn’t last unfortunately.
 
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lv20gt

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So any class that can take 25 is automatically better than one that can only take 17? That’s a weird take. So any coach who RSs a lot is automatically a bad recruiter.

Literally not what was said. What was said was that increasing the size of a class can't make it worse. It's why it makes sense to look at the top of a class when evaluating.

In any case, since you don't like 247 look at espn. We'll look at the top 15 so that we don't include that pesky kicker you have a problem with.

2020 - average 78.9, 3 espn top 300 recruits. All 15 ranked 77 or better (actually 16 in total), 7 of them 79 or better.
2010 - average 77.4 - no espn top 300 recruits. 11 ranked 77 or better. 4 ranked 79 or better.

The average is a point and a half different, and there is more top end talent.


If we had room the 2010 class could have filled in with three or four 5.5/5.6 guys (guys that GA is littered with) and been ranked near identical. The fact that CGC had more room to take these guys than CPJ did doesn’t automatically make it a better class.

We always had more room under Johnson. One of the longest held complaints was that he didn't recruit to cover the inevitable attrition. Last year we had a coach who did recruit to cover that attrition, Also, you keep adding mythical players to the 2010 class to make your argument. At that point you're no longer arguing for 2010 being as good as 2020, because you literally have to change the 2010 class to compare. Also, the late additions to the 2010 class were some of our lowest ones (4 of the 5 lowest rated were after the new year) and only had one addition that was 5.6 (Smelter was a baseball recruit originally) in Young, so your characterization that the only reason we weren't landing more 5.6 guys is because of class space is suspicious at best. We were adding low 3* and 2* prospects at the end when we were filling space. Lastly, there were 6 teams in the top 25 that had as many recruits as we did or fewer so quantity wasn't the only issue.

CPJ absolutely capitalized on his ‘08/‘09 success in the 2010 recruiting class. The momentum didn’t last unfortunately.

That class may have been better than his rest, but didn't "look a lot like CGC’s ‘20 class that everybody’s been creaming their pants about." That is especially true considering the thread you were responding to was primarily offensive focused and the 2010 class lacked on that side of the ball even if you think bostic's 150 pound self was a 4. It also ignores the fact that the hype surrounding the 2020 class was also because of the circumstances of the class. That includes the transfer additions that haven't even been factored in, the fact that it was recruited off of a 3-9 year instead of an ACC championship year, and that it was the coaching staff's first real class without even a full recruiting cycle to work with (there were player committed elsewhere from the 2020 class before they even got here).
 

gtrower

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Honest question, do you follow recruiting regularly? I ask because in your argument you’ve now completely dismissed Rivals (the flagship service in 2010), used 247 (a site that didn’t exist in 2010), and fallen back to ESPN (which nobody that follows football recruiting has used in 2010, 2020, or anywhere in between).

I’ve proven with evidence that the Top 5/10/15 recruits in those classes were near identical in terms of ratings coming out of HS. That’s not up for debate because I just showed it to you. For some reason you’re in love with bigger classes. Which is a flawed stance. But even if we look at the Top 19 (which is again flawed flawed flawed):

Top 19
2020: 5.68
2010: 5.63 (with a 5.4 kicker)

I chuckled at the part about “coming off a 3-9 season” and ignoring the avalanche of advantages CGC had last year (conventional offense, Adidas, new locker rooms, new EDGE coming, indoor practice facility, conservatively twice the recruiting staff, more lenient Hill) and to his credit took full advantage of.

You must either (a) be unable to accept that CPJ’s successes don’t threaten CGC’s recruiting prowess or (b) have checked 247 and made up your mind before realizing it didn’t exist during the dates in question. This is just a weird hill to die on man. Nobody is trying to say CPJ was a great recruiter as a HC. And all evidence is pointing to CGC being an above average recruiter as a HC. But CPJs 2010 class was definitely comparable to CGCs 2020 class.

Which is fine. Ideally that will be one of CGCs weaker classes when we look back at it all. It’ll likely need to be if we’re gonna be competing for conference championships moving forward.
 
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lv20gt

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Honest question, do you follow recruiting regularly? I ask because in your argument you’ve now completely dismissed Rivals (the flagship service in 2010), used 247 (a site that didn’t exist in 2010), and fallen back to ESPN (which nobody that follows football recruiting has used in 2010, 2020, or anywhere in between).

I've been following recruiting regularly since about 2005. I would prefer to use scout.com's old rankings but I can't seem to find them. Rivals is trash on par with espn and always has been. Regardless, even at the time the 2010 class didn't have the hype around it the 2020 class had and even your own choice of site backs that up with a mid 40s ranking. And that was the high water mark for the class, where the 2020 class was highly thought of across the board independent of service.

For some reason you’re in love with bigger classes. Which

No, you just completely lack an understanding that class size is a factor that plays a big part and try to hand waive that away by saying just add more players as if it were guaranteed. You're literally trying to give credit for players not landed to say the classes are the same. In addition. This small class had the same number of recruits as 6 top 25 recruiting classes that year so the argument about class size is without bite. Especially since late in that class there were still spots open and they were spent on the lower rated prospects of the class, in general, including that kicker you keep bringing up. As I said before, 4 of the 5 lowest rated recruits in that class were added after the new year. That class, as it was, had room for more higher rated recruits. Instead we took a couple of reaches late in the process. And as I said before, there was room for more than 19 in the class, but Johnson didn't recruit with attrition in mind.

And here is where class size matters. All 19 of the 2020 class that you mentioned were rated 5.6 or above. Only 14 of the 19 in the 2010 class can say the same. So the 2020 has more depth. And on top of that, the 2020 class featured 2 prospects on rivals ranked higher than anyone on the 2021 class (Brooks and Gibbs). So even going by rivals, the 2020 class feature higher top end, more depth, and was ranked higher. But yeah, we could add recruits who weren't an actual part of the 2010 class to make it compare....

In reality, you just want to ignore class size, reduce analysis down to average rating, and then pick whichever site helps make your point.

I chuckled at the part about “coming off a 3-9 season” and ignoring the avalanche of advantages CGC had last year (conventional offense, Adidas, new locker rooms, new EDGE coming, indoor practice facility, conservatively twice the recruiting staff, more lenient Hill) and to his credit took full advantage of.

Yeah, all those things are equally easy to sell and have the same impact as winning a championship....
 

Techster

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1) you shouldn’t be looking off 247 for those old classes. For instance Bostic is unrated on 247 composite but a 4* on rivals. That right there is enough to skew things badly.

BJ Bostic had two profiles on 247. The "Barry Bostic" profile is the one the ranked profile 247 used and is listed in the 247 class commitments (8th highest rated recruit that year...ranked #52 in the state of GA and 0.8674 rating).

https://247sports.com/college/georgia-tech/Season/2010-Football/Commits/

Personally, I give each coach the benefit and assign the highest rating to each recruit whether it's from 247/Rivals/ESPN/etc. in terms of state ranking or star rating since recruiting is an inexact science. Plus, as you and @lv20gt 's argument is showing, each person will use the data most favorable to their side. Lot easier to assign each recruit the higher rating regardless of service grade that way it's fair all around.
 

gtrower

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247 bought Scout out a few years back. Would have thought somebody that followed recruiting regularly would have been aware.

Well, at this point I can either dissect your paragraphs upon paragraphs of opinion or just copy/paste the evidence for you to read again. So I’ll save the time and thread space and let you scroll back through. Cheers.
 
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