Fire Geoff Collins

g0lftime

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I can't get past your first paragraph, because the premise you present is the one I am challenging as inaccurate.

Is Geoff Collins really "any coach"? As I read that comment in context with your NIU conclusion, I can only interpret that to mean that you are projecting Geoff Collins as an average P5 head coach with no differentiating qualities. Is that accurate? I suspect you along with 90%+ of the posters here would disagree with that.

How would you categorize Chan Gailey? He strikes me as "any coach" vanilla as it gets and he had the same record and same ACCCG appearance rate at Georgia Tech as CPJ, without the NIU, Citadel, MTSU, Kansas, etc. equivalent result that you cite as proof of Monken.

While I think Monken is a really good coach too, I also agree with your conclusion that there are other viable choices. Georgia Tech can and should expect to beat your proposed non-conference slate of Georgia State, Bowling Green, Southern Miss and Louisiana Tech. Then going .500 in the ACC has been proven reasonable across every prior coach at Georgia Tech regardless of scheme.

The announcement that CGC will be back is one of the most obvious decisions that was always going to happen.
If you look at it rationally, there is no way GT will fire Collins while he is in the 'fully guaranteed' part of his contract. Which also means fans thinking he might be fired if he starts slowly next year are likely wrong. The difference between firing him after say 4 games vs firing him after the season ends next year is around $4.5M. For that much money you you grit your teeth and wait 3 months.

Frankly, GT is not an attractive enough job that you can simply fire coaches and automatically expect to hire better ones. GT is likely a bottom 1/2 job in the P5 conferences. Athlon ranks it as the 41st best in FBS and 7th best in ACC - and that was before 3 straight 3 win seasons - which is going to negatively impact that.

It's not a bottom of a barrel job, but it is also not one that is likely to attract many, if any, top tier type candidates. It's a program that if you can find the right G5 HC or P5 asst you can win until that coach finds a better P5 job. In essence I do not see GT as a 'destination' job, it is more of a 'stepping stone' job. In all likelihood if Collins ultimately has to be replaced it could be with another coach with a similar background (though hopefully more success).
Just give me a coach for 3 years to right the ship. Could be an ex HC from college or pro with name recognition and prior success more than 2 years at a lower tier program. Could be an older coach just wanting to get back into it. I don't care as long as they are experienced. We certainly need help next year at DC and OC. What we have now is definitely not working. I would take Mark Whipple for OC in a heartbeat. Pitt was paying him just under $500k.
 

bobongo

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It's a program that if you can find the right G5 HC or P5 asst you can win until that coach finds a better P5 job. In essence I do not see GT as a 'destination' job, it is more of a 'stepping stone' job.
That has a big silver lining to it. If the new coach is successful, somebody could buy out his contract and make up the money we lost paying off Geoff's.
 

orientalnc

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What if he’s reading this all wrong and we’re actually outperforming all season. We could be a 10pt worse defense very easily & any positive changes would have to get us back to this year’s level. Sounds crazy, but half the games were not real competitive. If other teams really had to score, we’d have seen a lot different plays called in the 3rd and 4th quarters.
This ranks up there with multiverse discussions. I understand the theory, but I can't see how it actually happens.
 

Tjacket

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234
Just give me a coach for 3 years to right the ship. Could be an ex HC from college or pro with name recognition and prior success more than 2 years at a lower tier program. Could be an older coach just wanting to get back into it. I don't care as long as they are experienced. We certainly need help next year at DC and OC. What we have now is definitely not working. I would take Mark Whipple for OC in a heartbeat. Pitt was paying him just under $500k.
Amen brother. Preach. On
 

GTcanWINagain

Banned
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152
Felt bad for Cuse that day. We ***** slapped them.
We got their coach fired…funny how some programs actually have standards! TStan has parlayed that GT FB letter into what has been nationally exposed as an abject failure - if our GTAA Board is full of “Curry’s Boys” then we are truly doomed! Yes, I have spoken ill of a former player who is now our AD! However, I am not attacking his playing for GT FB in the least - nor Curry’s! If Collins somehow begins to win then jumps to an SEC team in a few years, I am definitely going to ask TStan to take a pay cut to refund Collins’ “$9MM in OJT Pay” that TStan allowed him to steal from the GTAA!
 

Techster

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The announcement that CGC will be back is one of the most obvious decisions that was always going to happen.
If you look at it rationally, there is no way GT will fire Collins while he is in the 'fully guaranteed' part of his contract. Which also means fans thinking he might be fired if he starts slowly next year are likely wrong. The difference between firing him after say 4 games vs firing him after the season ends next year is around $4.5M. For that much money you you grit your teeth and wait 3 months.

Frankly, GT is not an attractive enough job that you can simply fire coaches and automatically expect to hire better ones. GT is likely a bottom 1/2 job in the P5 conferences. Athlon ranks it as the 41st best in FBS and 7th best in ACC - and that was before 3 straight 3 win seasons - which is going to negatively impact that.

It's not a bottom of a barrel job, but it is also not one that is likely to attract many, if any, top tier type candidates. It's a program that if you can find the right G5 HC or P5 asst you can win until that coach finds a better P5 job. In essence I do not see GT as a 'destination' job, it is more of a 'stepping stone' job. In all likelihood if Collins ultimately has to be replaced it could be with another coach with a similar background (though hopefully more success).

Funny enough, I think GT will be a more attractive job when CGC is let go than when he was hired. Our roster has much more talent, and the talent is more in line with modern day offenses and defenses than when CPJ left. It will be a MUCH easier transition for the next coach than when CGC was hired.

Offensively, we have QB talent that can play in an option based spread, or a pro style spread. I think the OL needs work, but the younger guys all have the size and length coaches covet. We have a few 4 star WRs, and a RB room that will be loaded with 4 star talent (if the RBs that are committed remain committed). The first thing I do if I'm the new coach is persuade Tashard Choice to stay...he's the key in the RB room and for recruiting.

Defensively, there's a lot of talent on the DL either committed or on the roster. Our DE group is talented, but young. We have 2 four star DT recruits. The DB room has quite a few 4 stars, but they're young. LB position is a concern, but fixable with the right recruits and transfers.

If I'm a coach looking at GT, this a far different roster than the one in 2018 when CPJ retired. I look at the raw talent (right now #5 in the ACC talent composite according to 247), and would be confident I'm the coach that can turn them into legit Coastal contenders.
 

Towaliga

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732
I am very disappointed right now, but if TStan has made this decision to retain Collins, I will continue to pull for the Jackets and hope that Collins is successful next year. However, TStan better give me a good reason (and some semblance of hope) in order for me to decide to renew my season tickets. Lately I feel like Collins and TStan have been pi**ing on my boots but trying to convince me it’s raining.
 

stech81

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I am very disappointed right now, but if TStan has made this decision to retain Collins, I will continue to pull for the Jackets and hope that Collins is successful next year. However, TStan better give me a good reason (and some semblance of hope) in order for me to decide to renew my season tickets. Lately I feel like Collins and TStan have been pi**ing on my boots but trying to convince me it’s raining.
He told me it was yellow snow
 

Northeast Stinger

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Let me put it this way.

IF five games into next year we are one of the worst teams in the country and sinking fast, fans are staying away in droves, and it’s increasingly hard to attract or hold on to quality recruits, IT WILL MAKE ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE to say “Our season is done for, this coach is going to get fired, but we are going to hang on to him for 7 more games because we will save 3 million dollars or whatever it is.

That is crazy. I don’t know any job, or even any relationship, where you say it’s over, you’re gone and everyone knows it, but stick around until the end of the year.
 

takethepoints

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Armchair analysis has the problem about frankly not understanding what the heck is going on, but I’m gonna try it anyway.

If you’re a startup and you’re trying something new or innovative, one of the hardest things to figure out is when to “pivot” and when not to. Pivoting can range from making minor adjustments to what your plan is, to major adjustments, to wholesale starting over.

One thing that makes it hard is trying to figure out when to push ahead harder because “we’re smart, we can make this work with more brains or more effort” vs “it’s time to make a small change” vs “it’s time to make a big change.

Collins is not running an innovative offense. He’s not running an innovative defense. What he is trying to do is innovate in “culture” and that shows up in recruiting, training, practice, and on gameday. He’s trying to attract and develop a winning football team through fun and positive feedback. Some of that is enthusiastic 5 am workout sessions. Some of it is DJs at practice. Some of that is the Juice Crew and Money Down. Some of that is the constant use of phrases like “high level”.

He gets players to aspire to be their best and put all their energy into being their best and giving maximum effort. In that, I think he’s been successful.

The problem is, players are blowing coverages and missing blocks with high energy. They’re unfocused and undirected and making fundamental mistakes. Players are bought in on playing at 100%, but they’re freelancing instead of following the system and doing their assignments; they’re trying to strip the ball instead of making a tackle; they’re trying to bring down a player with a big hit instead of wrapping up and gang tackling; they’re trying to make up for their teammate’s errors and getting out of position.

We are “all gas, no brakes, and not much steering”.

Collins keeps giving the players a big jolt of confidence, and it backfires sometimes. They walked into the Citadel game a couple of years ago, and were overconfident. Probably the same thing against NIU and Syracuse and a lot of other games.

He needed to make a pivot in year 1, but he didn’t “have his players yet”. He needed to pivot in year 2, but there was COVID and it disrupted his system, and he still didn’t have his players yet. It’s year 3, and he should have his players by now. He really does have his players by now. But Stansbury is saying that we need to get in more talent.

We have as much or more talent that Wake or BC or Pitt or UVA or VT. Outside of FSU, Miami, Clemson, and UNC, our guys should match up favorably against our opponents. I get that the recruiting rankings are kinda bogus, but if you look at the 247 “talent composite”, we’re 5th in the ACC and we’re 33rd in the country. That’s enough to have a winning conference record and go to a good bowl, and be “getting votes” in the top 25.

By the way, the teams leading the ACC in the “talent composite” are not having good years. Possibly FSU is not below their preseason expectations, but that’s only because they had massively lowered expectations. Clemson, UNC, and Miami are definitely below their preseason top 25 expectations.

When things go wrong, there’s no “one problem”. Problems come in bunches, and I’m just writing about one of them.

Confidently giving 110% in the wrong way isn’t going to win you many games. Getting more athletic players confidently giving 110% will get us to a Miami Hurricanes level of going 6-6 with a top 15 recruiting class.

In the past, I’ve called it “attention to detail”, but there needs to be a pivot to doing the basics before trying to do the fancy stuff. In Collins’ system, I don’t know if that’s a substantial adjustment or a major overhaul or a complete abandonment, though.

=====

@bke1984 I found the “10 points” comment to be ridiculous. My hope is for good coaching to make a positive 2 point swing. If you’ve fallen to needing a 10 point swing, you’re in the ditch with your car on fire.
I agree. But the main problem is that leadership is missing. Why did Paul's teams so often perform beyond their recruiting rankings? I think the main reason was that the players trusted his leadership. By that I mean that they thought that if they kept the game close, he'd find a way for them to win. That's no guarantee that they would, but, if you win enough by following your coach's calls and come close other times, then you begin to get confidence in both the program and yourself. Dodd was famous for telling his players just how good he thought they were; he wasn't afraid to tell them that the other side had a better team. What he did say is that if it looked like it was possible, he would find a way for them to win. And that happened a lot.

That kind of confidence is just what the team is lacking today. It may develop next year, though I don't think there are grounds for assuming it will. But … perhaps.
 

takethepoints

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You piqued my interest. Stats post at https://gtswarm.com/threads/being-10-points-away.24369/.

For what it's worth, I think it's a lot easier to be 10 points worse in points per game than shaving 2 points off when you're an average team.
Right! My old college used to get really good scores in ranking instruments on many aspects of student experience and so-so scores on others. My colleagues (and the administration) thought the obvious thing to do was to improve in the areas we were already doing well in. As I always used to tell them, the hardest thing to do is to improve a 95 to a 98. Taking an 80 to a 90 is child's play by comparison. The math guys always backed me on that, but to no avail.
 

4shotB

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Right! My old college used to get really good scores in ranking instruments on many aspects of student experience and so-so scores on others. My colleagues (and the administration) thought the obvious thing to do was to improve in the areas we were already doing well in. As I always used to tell them, the hardest thing to do is to improve a 95 to a 98. Taking an 80 to a 90 is child's play by comparison. The math guys always backed me on that, but to no avail.

people like to reinorce the things they are good at instead of working on their weaknesses. Go to the golf course - guys love to hit buckets of balls but don't want to spend time on their chipping and putting, which is where they have the most chance of cutting strokes.. I'm a math teacher. Without fail, if I give out a study guide for an exam or test, students will work the problems they know how to do. It feels good when they work a problem and can get the correct answer. Which is the absolute opposite of what they should be doing. The good shooters on the basketball team? If they are in the gym, they are not practicing defense or rebounding. They are shooting the ball. It's human nature.
 

bobongo

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Funny enough, I think GT will be a more attractive job when CGC is let go than when he was hired. Our roster has much more talent, and the talent is more in line with modern day offenses and defenses than when CPJ left. It will be a MUCH easier transition for the next coach than when CGC was hired.

Offensively, we have QB talent that can play in an option based spread, or a pro style spread. I think the OL needs work, but the younger guys all have the size and length coaches covet. We have a few 4 star WRs, and a RB room that will be loaded with 4 star talent (if the RBs that are committed remain committed). The first thing I do if I'm the new coach is persuade Tashard Choice to stay...he's the key in the RB room and for recruiting.

Defensively, there's a lot of talent on the DL either committed or on the roster. Our DE group is talented, but young. We have 2 four star DT recruits. The DB room has quite a few 4 stars, but they're young. LB position is a concern, but fixable with the right recruits and transfers.

If I'm a coach looking at GT, this a far different roster than the one in 2018 when CPJ retired. I look at the raw talent (right now #5 in the ACC talent composite according to 247), and would be confident I'm the coach that can turn them into legit Coastal contenders.
Makes sense IF we can hang on to that talent.
 

Northeast Stinger

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Lol, this is why we can't have nice things. The mentality like this helped negative recruit against us when we had momentum.

Hopefully this type of thinking goes away with the next successful coach (or CGC if he turns things around).
This 👆

All day.

Hopefully Tech fans will never again take it for granted when we are competitive with uga, or have a winning season, or go to a bowl game. Tech fans can be absolutely shameful in their ability to side with the talking points of our rivals. Let’s stop this once and for all. Please.
 
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