Everybody wants to hold the baby. Nobody wants to go through labor.

ilovetheoption

Helluva Engineer
Messages
2,709
Guys.

This is it.

Right now.

This moment right now, where you're not a good team, and you just got slaughtered by ND, and you're aware that if UGA wanted this the score to be 100-0, and it's only by virtue of their class as a program and their mercy that it won't be, this is the moment, where you're either going to run the experiment, or you're not.

It's not guaranteed to work. That's the thing about experiments. Sometimes they fail, but they ALWAYS fail if you give up halfway through them.

4 years ago, you guys made a choice to run this experiment. The experiment is "we're f'n sick and tired of topping out as a program because we have x's and o's, and they have jimmies and joes, so let's try to do it the other way".

You then made decisions based off that choice. "Who is the best possible recruiter that we think we can get, and who will stick with GT". You said to yourself "we're going all in on jimmies and joes, because we really, really, really believe that if you've got the best guys, it overcomes tactics"

And, "the best guys" doesn't mean "the best guys as freshmen and sophomores". It means "the best guys as seniors, with the best guys as juniors, and the best guys as sophoremores, and the best guys as freshmen".

Getting the best guys means telling them what they want to hear, and what they want to hear is "we're going to prepare you for the NFL, and we're going to make you rich because of it", and that means running stuff that translates to the nfl.

THAT means running the same stuff as everybody else, and when you run the same stuff as everybody else AND they've got 2 years of recruiting and S/C on you, they kick your asses 55-0.

Is there a world where you have both? Meh, IDK, but you believed that collins was the best guy to get you the best jimmies and joes, and would stick at GT, and frankly, that wasn't a bad guess.

Could you guess maybe Charles Huff? Maybe. Could you guess maybe Mike Locksley? Maybe. Could you guess maybe Dre Bly? Maybe. Collins was probably a better pick for GT at the time, knowing what we knew then. He was in that elite cadre of recruiters, reputation wise, and he WANTS to be at GT.

For the experiment you're trying to run, Collins was the best pick.

So, we get to now.

If you're going to run this experiment to its conclusion, THIS is when you just shut up, and grind your teeth, deal with the massive L's.

The point of an experiment is to get datapoints, and you'll never get the data you want if you bail now. The data is "Can GT REALLY recruit their way to wins? Like, you've talked about it forever, and some people think yes, and some people think now, but right now you're halfway through an experiment. If you finish the experiment (because you'll probably lose next year, too), you can make decisions.

If, after 2023, you're still losing, then you know: We cannot do this. Our fundamentals do not allow it. Lets go get Jeff Monken, or Jamie Chadwell, or some Leach disciple, and try to do it on scheme.

If, on the other hand, after 2023, suddenly you're lining up and kicking UVa's *** at the point of attack, and giving UGA a game, and all we need to do is keep it up, and maybe tweak here or there, then you know that, too.

But if you quit now, and you never REALLY try to win on talent, with an entire roster stocked top to bottom, and fully developed with the best recruiter you're ever likely to get, then you'll never know, and that'll lead you to bad decisions (or at least decisions made on incomplete info).

I can't stand Geoff Collins. I think he's a clown, I think he's a D-bag, and I'd NEVER hire that guy to coach for me. Also, I think GT CAN'T do it. I think your academic and social environment, as well as your disinterested alumni base (and they'll ALWAYS be disinterested vis a vis uga) preclude you from winning like UGA does. THAT SAID, you've sunk 3 years into this experiment, and it's a good, valid experiment. You really want to get the data from this, so shut up, see it through, take the huge loss to UGA. Take a ****-ton of losses next year, and then the year after, get your data and move on from there.

You guys are numbers guys. Get your numbers.

Right now. This moment. Stop thinking with your hearts, and your "jesus, I'm going to have to hear about this from my UGA inlaws for 20 years when they beat us by 70" and start thinking with your "I'm dealing with unpleasantness that will allow me to make optimal football-related decisions for 2 generations".

Signed,

The least likely guy on this board to write this post (and also somebody with no skin in the game)
 

Pointer

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,467
Great points and I could get behind this logic. My fears are the damage from another 1 to 2 losing seasons will be tough to come back from in a time of major change in college football.

I also fear in the case where things do go as poorly as they look now, no matter how badly the experiment goes, at the end of '23, there will be some new excuse at to why we should wait.

It's a major gamble, and I can see it from both sides (I'm firmly standing with you I'm that I don't think this experiment will work), but I understand the need to try because nobody can say for sure what will work or not.
 

RamblinRed

Helluva Engineer
Featured Member
Messages
4,657
I don't disagree with a single thing you wrote. This is the path GT chose to take, have to see it to conclusion.

I will say, the only nitpick I would add is that the idea can't be 'we will recruit better prospects and that will magically translate to more winning' - which you are not advocating, but is how many think. That is not how football works.
To me, the coaching staff has 3 relatively even responsibilities.
one is recruiting
A second is player development
A third is gameday coaching.

If you have better recruiting than previously but either of the other 2 pieces drop from a previous staff, then you are unlikely to improve.

What we have seen so far from Collins and his staff is that they can likely recruit at a Top 20-25 level (that looks to be about the ceiling) if things are going well.
There are significant question marks about both the player development and in-game coaching that raise serious questions.

so if you think recuiting is going better, than you have to improve those other 2 components to have a chance to improve from the previous program baseline. So assuming you are going to continue the experiment that means looking at the data as you collect it and deciding are their things you can do better by making changes. Right now that would appear to likely mean making changes to the staff to hopefully improve the second and their pieces.
 

GT_05

Helluva Engineer
Messages
2,105
Will the current players hang around for more experimental trials and how many 3*, 4*, and 5* recruits want to be Guinea pigs?

Also, if recruits want to play on the big stage then Tech is low on their list right now. There were several TV blackouts this year and the best opportunities to see us on TV is when we are getting demolished by Clemson, ND, UGA, etc.

Dumpster fire.
 

ilovetheoption

Helluva Engineer
Messages
2,709
Will the current players hang around for more experimental trials and how many 3*, 4*, and 5* recruits want to be Guinea pigs?

Also, if recruits want to play on the big stage then Tech is low on their list right now. There were several TV blackouts this year and the best opportunities to see us on TV is when we are getting demolished by Clemson, ND, UGA, etc.

Dumpster fire.
No idea, but you have to find out.

These are the answers you have to get.
 

WreckinGT

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,950
The problem with this experiment as you are putting it is that it seems to assume that our current coaching staff can coach at a competent level. If they can't then the experiment is already corrupted and seeing it through is just a waste of time. If a microbiologist is executing a long running experiment and sees several hours into it that the numbers are not normal and there is obviously some kind of contamination or unexpected reactions in what they are doing, they don't continue for several more days hoping it gets better. They try to assess what went wrong and start a new experiment.
 

wvGT11

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
821
I have no issues with this experiment moving away from the option . Where I have issues is our coach being able to coach up with one of the best recruiting classes in well over a decade.
Remember WE didn't chose Collins, but we did chose to move away from the option by not hiring another lesser option coach. For me for the option to work it's CPJ or no option at all. He retired so that's out
 

Gomez Adams

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
118
Location
Suwanee, Georgia
The problem with this experiment as you are putting it is that it seems to assume that our current coaching staff can coach at a competent level.

And that ends the experiment before it even begins.

After three years with this coach we still have players looking around wondering what's going on. We can't even handle The Citadel anymore.

All the experiment would do is cause more chaos...if that's even possible at this point.
 

MidtownJacket

Helluva Engineer
Messages
3,730
If you're going to run this experiment to its conclusion, THIS is when you just shut up, and grind your teeth, deal with the massive L's.
This is the crux of the whole post and I could not agree more. Sure, we will get to a point where we are throwing good money after bad, but as my dad used to say when drawing for a set in Rummy: Don't abandon your horse midstream.

We are where we are, as a byproduct of what we did. We all knew it could get this bad before it got better and it's taking longer than we hoped, but we don't KNOW the outcome till the closure of the trial. Time to drop your chin, protect against a KO and drive.
 

TooTall

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,707
Location
Vidalia
Will the current players hang around for more experimental trials and how many 3*, 4*, and 5* recruits want to be Guinea pigs?

Also, if recruits want to play on the big stage then Tech is low on their list right now. There were several TV blackouts this year and the best opportunities to see us on TV is when we are getting demolished by Clemson, ND, UGA, etc.

Dumpster fire.
Even in the ebb that we are in right now, we haven't lost recruits for this year or next. We haven't seen current players jump into the portal. The bad thing is we only get to see this team for 3 hours a week. We have no idea what the locker room is like. Until its obvious the coach loses the locker room, we can keep building. Im confident about next year, my Dodger fandom history of waiting till next year is showing lol.

@ilovetheoption is right. Dont stop sending money. Don't stop supporting OUR team. Ill be there Sat cheering on the Brave and Bold in sec 121.
 

Gomez Adams

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
118
Location
Suwanee, Georgia
we haven't lost recruits for this year or next.
I think a point a lot of people miss is that GT is a hell of a school. There are a lot of good, quality recruits that WANT to attend the school and will sign up regardless.

No, we're not going to pull in that future hall of fame quarterback that's the number one recruit in the nation, but you know what? We never did.
 

Gomez Adams

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
118
Location
Suwanee, Georgia
we haven't lost recruits for this year or next.
I think a point a lot of people miss is that GT is a hell of a school. There are a lot of good, quality recruits that WANT to attend the school and will sign up regardless.

No, we're not going to pull in that future hall of fame quarterback that's the number one recruit in the nation, but you know what? We never did.
 

LibertyTurns

Helluva Engineer
Messages
6,175
We don’t have to stop the experiment, however when you finally figure out your mixture is incorrect you don’t just keep running to prove it’s wrong. The experiment requires a staff that:

a. Can recruit- doing ok here
b. Can develop players- failing, perhaps miserably so
d. Can manage the game live- they’re inept

Keep the experiment going, but dish the broken pieces and press on. There’s some KEY moves that need to be made and if I had a CHOICE I’d not stand PAT and drink a tom COLLINS when I’m getting THACKERed up one side and down the other every Saturday. I’d make some changes.
 

tomknight

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
259
Guys.

This is it.

Right now.

This moment right now, where you're not a good team, and you just got slaughtered by ND, and you're aware that if UGA wanted this the score to be 100-0, and it's only by virtue of their class as a program and their mercy that it won't be, this is the moment, where you're either going to run the experiment, or you're not.

It's not guaranteed to work. That's the thing about experiments. Sometimes they fail, but they ALWAYS fail if you give up halfway through them.

4 years ago, you guys made a choice to run this experiment. The experiment is "we're f'n sick and tired of topping out as a program because we have x's and o's, and they have jimmies and joes, so let's try to do it the other way".

You then made decisions based off that choice. "Who is the best possible recruiter that we think we can get, and who will stick with GT". You said to yourself "we're going all in on jimmies and joes, because we really, really, really believe that if you've got the best guys, it overcomes tactics"

And, "the best guys" doesn't mean "the best guys as freshmen and sophomores". It means "the best guys as seniors, with the best guys as juniors, and the best guys as sophoremores, and the best guys as freshmen".

Getting the best guys means telling them what they want to hear, and what they want to hear is "we're going to prepare you for the NFL, and we're going to make you rich because of it", and that means running stuff that translates to the nfl.

THAT means running the same stuff as everybody else, and when you run the same stuff as everybody else AND they've got 2 years of recruiting and S/C on you, they kick your asses 55-0.

Is there a world where you have both? Meh, IDK, but you believed that collins was the best guy to get you the best jimmies and joes, and would stick at GT, and frankly, that wasn't a bad guess.

Could you guess maybe Charles Huff? Maybe. Could you guess maybe Mike Locksley? Maybe. Could you guess maybe Dre Bly? Maybe. Collins was probably a better pick for GT at the time, knowing what we knew then. He was in that elite cadre of recruiters, reputation wise, and he WANTS to be at GT.

For the experiment you're trying to run, Collins was the best pick.

So, we get to now.

If you're going to run this experiment to its conclusion, THIS is when you just shut up, and grind your teeth, deal with the massive L's.

The point of an experiment is to get datapoints, and you'll never get the data you want if you bail now. The data is "Can GT REALLY recruit their way to wins? Like, you've talked about it forever, and some people think yes, and some people think now, but right now you're halfway through an experiment. If you finish the experiment (because you'll probably lose next year, too), you can make decisions.

If, after 2023, you're still losing, then you know: We cannot do this. Our fundamentals do not allow it. Lets go get Jeff Monken, or Jamie Chadwell, or some Leach disciple, and try to do it on scheme.

If, on the other hand, after 2023, suddenly you're lining up and kicking UVa's *** at the point of attack, and giving UGA a game, and all we need to do is keep it up, and maybe tweak here or there, then you know that, too.

But if you quit now, and you never REALLY try to win on talent, with an entire roster stocked top to bottom, and fully developed with the best recruiter you're ever likely to get, then you'll never know, and that'll lead you to bad decisions (or at least decisions made on incomplete info).

I can't stand Geoff Collins. I think he's a clown, I think he's a D-bag, and I'd NEVER hire that guy to coach for me. Also, I think GT CAN'T do it. I think your academic and social environment, as well as your disinterested alumni base (and they'll ALWAYS be disinterested vis a vis uga) preclude you from winning like UGA does. THAT SAID, you've sunk 3 years into this experiment, and it's a good, valid experiment. You really want to get the data from this, so shut up, see it through, take the huge loss to UGA. Take a ****-ton of losses next year, and then the year after, get your data and move on from there.

You guys are numbers guys. Get your numbers.

Right now. This moment. Stop thinking with your hearts, and your "jesus, I'm going to have to hear about this from my UGA inlaws for 20 years when they beat us by 70" and start thinking with your "I'm dealing with unpleasantness that will allow me to make optimal football-related decisions for 2 generations".

Signed,

The least likely guy on this board to write this post (and also somebody with no skin in the game)


aren't you a UVA fan? and you're gonna come here after that massive beat down, in the middle of a fanbase meltdown, and lecture us what you think is best for our program?

spare me.
 

Heisman's Ghost

Helluva Engineer
Messages
3,170
Location
Albany Georgia
Guys.

This is it.

Right now.

This moment right now, where you're not a good team, and you just got slaughtered by ND, and you're aware that if UGA wanted this the score to be 100-0, and it's only by virtue of their class as a program and their mercy that it won't be, this is the moment, where you're either going to run the experiment, or you're not.

It's not guaranteed to work. That's the thing about experiments. Sometimes they fail, but they ALWAYS fail if you give up halfway through them.

4 years ago, you guys made a choice to run this experiment. The experiment is "we're f'n sick and tired of topping out as a program because we have x's and o's, and they have jimmies and joes, so let's try to do it the other way".

You then made decisions based off that choice. "Who is the best possible recruiter that we think we can get, and who will stick with GT". You said to yourself "we're going all in on jimmies and joes, because we really, really, really believe that if you've got the best guys, it overcomes tactics"

And, "the best guys" doesn't mean "the best guys as freshmen and sophomores". It means "the best guys as seniors, with the best guys as juniors, and the best guys as sophoremores, and the best guys as freshmen".

Getting the best guys means telling them what they want to hear, and what they want to hear is "we're going to prepare you for the NFL, and we're going to make you rich because of it", and that means running stuff that translates to the nfl.

THAT means running the same stuff as everybody else, and when you run the same stuff as everybody else AND they've got 2 years of recruiting and S/C on you, they kick your asses 55-0.

Is there a world where you have both? Meh, IDK, but you believed that collins was the best guy to get you the best jimmies and joes, and would stick at GT, and frankly, that wasn't a bad guess.

Could you guess maybe Charles Huff? Maybe. Could you guess maybe Mike Locksley? Maybe. Could you guess maybe Dre Bly? Maybe. Collins was probably a better pick for GT at the time, knowing what we knew then. He was in that elite cadre of recruiters, reputation wise, and he WANTS to be at GT.

For the experiment you're trying to run, Collins was the best pick.

So, we get to now.

If you're going to run this experiment to its conclusion, THIS is when you just shut up, and grind your teeth, deal with the massive L's.

The point of an experiment is to get datapoints, and you'll never get the data you want if you bail now. The data is "Can GT REALLY recruit their way to wins? Like, you've talked about it forever, and some people think yes, and some people think now, but right now you're halfway through an experiment. If you finish the experiment (because you'll probably lose next year, too), you can make decisions.

If, after 2023, you're still losing, then you know: We cannot do this. Our fundamentals do not allow it. Lets go get Jeff Monken, or Jamie Chadwell, or some Leach disciple, and try to do it on scheme.

If, on the other hand, after 2023, suddenly you're lining up and kicking UVa's *** at the point of attack, and giving UGA a game, and all we need to do is keep it up, and maybe tweak here or there, then you know that, too.

But if you quit now, and you never REALLY try to win on talent, with an entire roster stocked top to bottom, and fully developed with the best recruiter you're ever likely to get, then you'll never know, and that'll lead you to bad decisions (or at least decisions made on incomplete info).

I can't stand Geoff Collins. I think he's a clown, I think he's a D-bag, and I'd NEVER hire that guy to coach for me. Also, I think GT CAN'T do it. I think your academic and social environment, as well as your disinterested alumni base (and they'll ALWAYS be disinterested vis a vis uga) preclude you from winning like UGA does. THAT SAID, you've sunk 3 years into this experiment, and it's a good, valid experiment. You really want to get the data from this, so shut up, see it through, take the huge loss to UGA. Take a ****-ton of losses next year, and then the year after, get your data and move on from there.

You guys are numbers guys. Get your numbers.

Right now. This moment. Stop thinking with your hearts, and your "jesus, I'm going to have to hear about this from my UGA inlaws for 20 years when they beat us by 70" and start thinking with your "I'm dealing with unpleasantness that will allow me to make optimal football-related decisions for 2 generations".

Signed,

The least likely guy on this board to write this post (and also somebody with no skin in the game)
Data? Numbers? OK, here is one. Tech got beat by Notre Dame by 55 points. In Notre Dame's other wins this season, the cumulative point difference was exactly 55. I have seen all the "data" I need to see to know that this team has quit on its coach while our program plummets to depths not seen since the Bill Lewis days although in all fairness to Coach Lewis, his winning percentage in 2 plus years was actually slightly higher.
 

JacketintheNati

Georgia Tech Fan
Messages
14
Less of the debate is about a coach or philosophy and more how it has been presented. If CGC had come in and spoken about building on the positives from all Tech years including Johnson instead of stating it was the greatest transformation in college football history there would be less division than there is today. CGC talks about always being positive and that is not true - he is always positive when it benefits him - he was very negative about this historic transition and that hurt the GT brand, the fact that the years prior many GT fans bought into the negativity of the "high school offense" also hurt our brand. We are more worried about being accepted by college football rivals and sending players to the NFL than we are about winning football games.

CPJ was not perfect but he did bring success to GT and opponents did not look forward to playing Tech when he was here. Were we on a downward slide - perhaps, but history shows that CPJ had a way of recovering. However, he could only recover with support. The same is true of CGC - can he recover? I do not know but it can only occur with our support. I don't particularly like CGC's approach but I support him just as I have all Tech coaches. It frustrated me when we got down on CCG or CPJ during the season and it frustrates me to get down on CGC.

One final thought the only reason a school like UF, LSU, USC announced coaching changes during the season is recruiting. GT does not have the same concern - if we announce the departure of CGC that will not benefit our recruiting since we will not be as attractive a destination for coaches.
 

Recleb

Georgia Tech Fan
Messages
34
aren't you a UVA fan? and you're gonna come here after that massive beat down, in the middle of a fanbase meltdown, and lecture us what you think is best for our program?

spare me.
I appreciate the well-meaning perspective of an outsider who has provided thoughtful input over a number of years. Perceiving this as a lecture is on you. I perceived as reasoned and unemotional.
 

ilovetheoption

Helluva Engineer
Messages
2,709
Data? Numbers? OK, here is one. Tech got beat by Notre Dame by 55 points. In Notre Dame's other wins this season, the cumulative point difference was exactly 55. I have seen all the "data" I need to see to know that this team has quit on its coach while our program plummets to depths not seen since the Bill Lewis days although in all fairness to Coach Lewis, his winning percentage in 2 plus years was actually slightly higher.
I'd argue that you've seen the data that your team sucks, not that they've quit. They are two very different things, but @tomknight makes an ENTIRELY fair point. this is not my team, and I'm just as insane about UVa as you guys are about GT, so I get it.
 

AlabamaBuzz

Helluva Engineer
Messages
3,517
Location
Hartselle, AL (originally Rome, GA)
Anyone with a pulse and some common sense can see this will not end well - we may have to collect the data points you are referring to, but I doubt those data points will change what we are seeing from a player development and in-game strategy/discipline standpoint. For someone to improve, they have to do things differently, usually significantly different. They also have to realize there is a need to change, a reason to "fix" something. I could be wrong, but I really don't believe CGC thinks there are actual chronic coaching issues. Yes, he would probably agree there are "acute" issues, but I don't believe he sees them as chronic and ongoing.

My response to your post? Meh. We need a new start asap (change at the top), and the new start needs to excite enough of our recruits to hold as many as possible.
 
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