Crazy World We Live In

forensicbuzz

Helluva Engineer
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4,242
Location
North Shore, Chicago

Technut1990

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
820
You used some examples on the far side of being dangerous, like a stash house. How many raids are those, and how many raids are of much smaller operations? There was a no-knock warrant that was serviced in Texas based on a tip that the apartment dweller was growing marijuana. The police executed the raid with no warning and no announcement. The apartment dweller shot at the unknown intruders and killed a policeman. He was tried for murder and found not-guilty because he had no idea that the armed men barging into his apartment were police. They found one marijuana plant in his bedroom. In my opinion, even if drugs should be illegal, that isn't a large enough issue to endanger lives. For larger raids, police in middle Georgia raided a warehouse that a drug gang used for their operation. Unfortunately for all involved, the drug gang believed at the time that another drug gang was planning to attack them. When the police burst in with no warning, nor announcement, and in tac gear, the drug gang thought it was the other gang and a large shootout erupted. A police officer was killed. Even according to the police statements, when they were able to announce that they were police, the gang members threw their guns down and laid down on the floor spread eagle. Several members of the gang were charged with murder, but they were able to plead guilty to manslaughter. I don't know how that raid would have gone down if the police had surrounded the location, it might have ended up in a shootout anyway. However, the reaction of the bad guys to finding out they were in a shootout with police seems to indicate that they didn't want to be shooting at police.

My examples of no-knock warrants that were severely lacking in substance point to what I consider to be a large problem. A no-knock no-announce warrant should be considered a very big deal. If an officer with 30 years experience says that in his experience, this is the best way to interrogate a suspect it is probably good to listen to him. However, even if a good officer with 30 years experience says that the best way to execute a warrant is in a way that is dangerous to the suspects and the officers, it should take a little more than just his opinion. Every aspect of the information in the warrant affidavit should be verified by more than just one officer. The supervisors should be involved and actively questioning if there are safer ways to achieve the desired results, and even if every desired result is absolutely necessary. The judge should question and consider authorizing such a dangerous warrant a lot more than a typical warrant to search a car. The judge should require that it be demonstrated that there are no other, less dangerous methods available. I have seen a few examples of no-knock warrants that are sloppy at best. The system should be set up so that sloppy police work cannot end up blazing through the system, at least when the desired methods are so dangerous.

we don’t disagree in totality but I think you miss the point I’m making is that you don’t know which is which Most of the time. EVERY a drug house stays busy with people in and out. EVERY trap house stays busy, has guards posted and has 5-15 people inside. Stash houses are usually empty except for those who may be in it resting from their trip.

what you say should be required was required where I worked, so that’s another point of our talking past each other. I would know why a lot of the things you mention on the procedure side aren’t happening across the board. The investigation was reviewed by supervisors, the detective had to request permission in writing to take an arrest warrant and/or a search warrant and that approval went through the Sgt and up to the Capt. if a uniform officer made a street arrest for substantial drugs narcotics was called to that scene so they could start a drug investigation, they didn’t just talk to the arrested person and go get a search warrant.

Judges are totally reliant on the cops word, they cannot review entire case files before issuing warrants, they are judges and they themselves have case loads.

another policy that needs to be put in place is that affidavits should be the actual record of what PC is. Right now affidavits can be supported by verbal affirmation of the officer Which isn’t recorded. In other words I could just put basic info in an affidavit and tell the judge the rest. You are sworn in and under oath when you file for any warrant and there are judges who really don’t like to read so they will sit there with a written application in hand and say ‘ just tell me why you need this‘. The door then opens for lies if the search goes bad.

ive never been on any raid that’s really a silent raid. A no knock/announce simply means you don’t ring the door bell and say police when they ask who it is. Every time the door has been breached we’ve gone in yelling “police”. If departments are not yelling police or search warrant as they are going in that’s a problem but once again it’s not a no knock problem it’s a procedure and policy problem.

I personally have never been in a trap house or sale house when it wasn’t full of people, so taking the target away from the location gets the target but it dosent and won’t remove the need for tactical entry, trap houses are also usually supplied by several people not just one person. And to your point Trap and Stash houses are being used more and more frequently given dealers learn and word is past on as to how to distance yourself from your enterprise. Your examples are outliers given the number of warrants served each day. Not saying they don’t happen, obviously they do but the vast vast majority don’t go bad.

Did a raid on a trap house once and the guards were at the entry point armed with an AK and a M-16, had they simply shot through the wall they would have killed several of us. we didn’t have arrest warrants for them because we didn’t know who they were, so outside of raiding the house I do t know how we could have gotten them. They didn’t shoot so we were lucky.

outside of those facts you can eliminate no knocks on drug houses but they would still be needed on other cases.

ultimately verification of course should be made but if and when it is people will still shoot.

it seems this entire policing debate is informed by the exceptions to the rule. Police shoot less than 6/10ths of blacks in America and less than 4/10ths of whites. If AMERICA could operate on facts this issue could be solved there are needs for reforms but it won’t happen while everyone screams at each other and acts like the only side needing change is the cops.

how many freakin videos do I have to watch that start with the driver telling the officer they don’t have to do something ?

there is need for change all across the board.

regardless of our talk, we need to get rid of laws that govern ingesting. We can still enforce DUIs and such but cops won’t be busting down any doors to do that
 

Technut1990

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
820
I'd love to see proof. Also, any person who claims to have looked at it to verify what they assumed was kiddie porn - have committed a crime and should be arrested. Only certain specially authorized investigators are allowed to knowingly verify child pornography.

Hunter Biden is a total sleaze ball who 100% profited off his name. But, he is not relevant at all and is only just now being talked about AGAIN as a distraction to:

to the point, in Georgia and prob half the other states consent age is 16. So on its face if he did pay for sex with a 17 year old he would simply be a John in most states.

yet another issue with variable laws. What’s illegal for half the country is legal for the other half
 

Technut1990

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
820
Some perspective: Meth causes about 13,000 O.D. deaths per year in the U.S. Cocaine around 2,500.

Psychedelic mushrooms - zero.

Tobacco causes around 480,000 deaths per year.

yet another ban that a cop will have to enforce, the black market will be back ordered, no thanks !
 

bobongo

Helluva Engineer
Messages
2,642

bobongo

Helluva Engineer
Messages
2,642
I know this data. It's as good as it's going to get, and I agree it's scientific. However, the number of variables are just too large for the data to be accurate.

It took a 12-step program for me to quit smoking (5,428 days and counting) and 122 extra pounds.
After six months, I'd say 50% of the desire to smoke was gone. After a year, 90%. But it took ten years before it completely, entirely, went away. You're well past that point...
 

RonJohn

Helluva Engineer
Messages
2,992
we don’t disagree in totality but I think you miss the point I’m making is that you don’t know which is which Most of the time. EVERY a drug house stays busy with people in and out. EVERY trap house stays busy, has guards posted and has 5-15 people inside. Stash houses are usually empty except for those who may be in it resting from their trip.

what you say should be required was required where I worked, so that’s another point of our talking past each other. I would know why a lot of the things you mention on the procedure side aren’t happening across the board. The investigation was reviewed by supervisors, the detective had to request permission in writing to take an arrest warrant and/or a search warrant and that approval went through the Sgt and up to the Capt. if a uniform officer made a street arrest for substantial drugs narcotics was called to that scene so they could start a drug investigation, they didn’t just talk to the arrested person and go get a search warrant.

Judges are totally reliant on the cops word, they cannot review entire case files before issuing warrants, they are judges and they themselves have case loads.

another policy that needs to be put in place is that affidavits should be the actual record of what PC is. Right now affidavits can be supported by verbal affirmation of the officer Which isn’t recorded. In other words I could just put basic info in an affidavit and tell the judge the rest. You are sworn in and under oath when you file for any warrant and there are judges who really don’t like to read so they will sit there with a written application in hand and say ‘ just tell me why you need this‘. The door then opens for lies if the search goes bad.

ive never been on any raid that’s really a silent raid. A no knock/announce simply means you don’t ring the door bell and say police when they ask who it is. Every time the door has been breached we’ve gone in yelling “police”. If departments are not yelling police or search warrant as they are going in that’s a problem but once again it’s not a no knock problem it’s a procedure and policy problem.

I personally have never been in a trap house or sale house when it wasn’t full of people, so taking the target away from the location gets the target but it dosent and won’t remove the need for tactical entry, trap houses are also usually supplied by several people not just one person. And to your point Trap and Stash houses are being used more and more frequently given dealers learn and word is past on as to how to distance yourself from your enterprise. Your examples are outliers given the number of warrants served each day. Not saying they don’t happen, obviously they do but the vast vast majority don’t go bad.

Did a raid on a trap house once and the guards were at the entry point armed with an AK and a M-16, had they simply shot through the wall they would have killed several of us. we didn’t have arrest warrants for them because we didn’t know who they were, so outside of raiding the house I do t know how we could have gotten them. They didn’t shoot so we were lucky.

outside of those facts you can eliminate no knocks on drug houses but they would still be needed on other cases.

ultimately verification of course should be made but if and when it is people will still shoot.

it seems this entire policing debate is informed by the exceptions to the rule. Police shoot less than 6/10ths of blacks in America and less than 4/10ths of whites. If AMERICA could operate on facts this issue could be solved there are needs for reforms but it won’t happen while everyone screams at each other and acts like the only side needing change is the cops.

how many freakin videos do I have to watch that start with the driver telling the officer they don’t have to do something ?

there is need for change all across the board.

regardless of our talk, we need to get rid of laws that govern ingesting. We can still enforce DUIs and such but cops won’t be busting down any doors to do that
I think you and I agree a lot more than we disagree.

I can believe, and certainly hope, that the examples I gave were outliers. However, having such outliers and little accountability when they are made public hurts from an image standpoint. In fact, a former prosecutor had previously made statements that the deputy who submitted the affidavit in Laurens County had committed perjury in warrant applications. Even after the deadly raid and after it was found out that the warrant contained incorrect and suspect information, that deputy was still on staff, and I believe still on the drug task force. It may be a one-off type of case, but there are other similar ones out there. In the Breonna Taylor warrant, there was information pertaining to statements from the postal inspector that the postal inspector and two other officers denied being true. I don't believe that all police are filing fraudulent search/arrest warrants. However, when a police officer approaches a car during a traffic stop, he doesn't believe that this person IS the one out of thousands that is going to be a danger. He takes precautions and assumes that all drivers and passengers are a danger until he is comfortable that they are not. Similarly, since there are examples of bad officers, some are going to assume the officer was bad before they know any details. I am going to wait for more detailed before I develop a belief. Unfortunately, the most outspoken people in society either automatically assume the officers acted perfectly, or they assume that all officers act totally improperly. People who try to understand details before making assumptions: don't speak up immediately, aren't as loud, and never make it into the news.
 

armeck

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
320
to the point, in Georgia and prob half the other states consent age is 16. So on its face if he did pay for sex with a 17 year old he would simply be a John in most states.

yet another issue with variable laws. What’s illegal for half the country is legal for the other half
 

awbuzz

Helluva Manager
Messages
9,130
Location
Marietta, GA
Some perspective: Meth causes about 13,000 O.D. deaths per year in the U.S. Cocaine around 2,500.

Psychedelic mushrooms - zero.

Tobacco causes around 480,000 deaths per year.
Who would you rather have driving a car coming towards you, a person smoking a cigarette or person who's just had some meth / cocaine/heroin/psychedelic mushroom?
 

GT_EE78

Helluva Engineer
Messages
3,380
to the point, in Georgia and prob half the other states consent age is 16. So on its face if he did pay for sex with a 17 year old he would simply be a John in most states.

yet another issue with variable laws. What’s illegal for half the country is legal for the other half
yea, SC constitution gives consent at 15.
If the police want to get you , then they use fed law at 18
if u well connected then its 15
 

awbuzz

Helluva Manager
Messages
9,130
Location
Marietta, GA
Keeping cigarette manufacturers from enticing kids to smoke is not ridiculous. How about cigarette manufacturers spiking their product with extra nicotine, for the purpose of getting more people hooked? I guess to you that would be hunky dory, while doing something to stop them is "ridiculous".

Do you think that food and drugs, like nicotine, should be unregulated? Just let manufacturers spike their products with any harmful chemical they want, and not even have to disclose it?

How Big Tobacco made cigarettes more addictive (truthinitiative.org)

One way the tobacco industry has manipulated cigarettes to increase addictiveness is by loading cigarettes with chemical compounds. Bronchodilators were added so that tobacco smoke can more easily enter the lungs. Sugars, flavors and menthol were increased to dull the harshness of smoke and make it easier to inhale. Ammonia was added so that nicotine travels to the brain faster.

Specifically, increasing the amount of nicotine was of paramount importance to tobacco company executives. Experts found that Big Tobacco companies genetically engineered their tobacco crops to contain two times the amount of nicotine and adjusted their cigarette design so that the nicotine delivered to smokers increased by 14.5 percent. As Phillip Morris Principal Scientist W.L. Dunn said in 1972, “No one has ever become a cigarette smoker by smoking cigarettes without nicotine.”

The reason we know all of this is because tobacco companies were forced to publicly release scientific studies and internal documents in 1998. They have also been forced to publicly admit their strategies. In November 2017, tobacco companies began a court-ordered advertisement campaign admitting the variety of ways they manipulated the public, including that they designed cigarettes to be more addictive and lied about it. Four Big Tobacco companies paid for the campaign after a U.S. district judge ordered them to set the record straight with corrective statements to counter years of misleading marketing.

The result of these “innovations” in cigarette design is devastating. The surgeon general found that “today’s cigarette smokers — both men and women — have a much higher risk for lung cancer and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD) than smokers in 1964, despite smoking fewer cigarettes.” Even though there are fewer smokers today than there were decades ago, smoking remains the number one cause of preventable death, accounting for 1,300 American deaths every day.


Naah, no need for regulation here.
It's their body. Don't they have the right to choose to smoke or not? I mean if 4 year old can choose to be different sex why can't they choose a flavored cigarette?
 

awbuzz

Helluva Manager
Messages
9,130
Location
Marietta, GA
I know this data. It's as good as it's going to get, and I agree it's scientific. However, the number of variables are just too large for the data to be accurate.

It took a 12-step program for me to quit smoking (5,428 days and counting) and 122 extra pounds.
My Dad said he put on 10 pounds of buttered popcorn during the first year he quit smoking.
 

Technut1990

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
820
yea, SC constitution gives consent at 15.
If the police want to get you , then they use fed law at 18
if u well connected then its 15

this stuff just doesn’t help society or LE. We all need clear understanding of our laws. There is absolutely no good reason to have such wide variety of ages of consent, or anything else concerning age. I understand states want to make their own decisions but Jezz. We should all be able to agree on what an adult is. If it’s 17, 18 or 21 it should be consistent.

I haven’t followed the case close enough but he could be from Florida where consent is apparently 18 and simply step across the line into Ga and have legal sex with the 17 year old, go home and truly argue he hasn’t broken any laws.

it’s the same with marijuana, people are already confused on what’s legal and what isn’t .

look at this hodgepodge of differences

 

SnidelyWhiplash

Helluva Engineer
Messages
15,477
Media fool opens his mouth:

Newsmax host criticizes Biden for picking a dandelion for the first lady (msn.com)

"All right folks, take a look at this," he said. "Joe Biden, getting on Marine One, and he stops and picks up ... I think it's a dandelion? But it's a dandelion that hasn't even blossomed into a flower yet..."

Who cares, I know, but just to note - the flower comes before the seed head, not after.

To your point, the bigger point is who gives a ****? What a loser to complain about such trivial nonsense. The media sucks.
 
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