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Cops

Discussion in 'The Swarm Lounge' started by Whiskey_Clear, Sep 13, 2017.

  1. Whiskey_Clear

    Whiskey_Clear Banned

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    There is a lot of legitimate concern over law enforcement, procedural justice, bias in law enforcement. I think most of these legitimate concerns are primarily fueled by a biased media microscope but even one unlawful use of force needs to be scrutinized properly, punished where necessary, and we should strive to eradicate it as much as possible.

    There seems to be a constant buzz in the media over this. I just wish the media was as diligent in reporting officer exonerations as they are of the alleged "excessive uses of force" when they occur. The media lack of telling the whole story places a huge slant on what actually occurs on the streets imo.

    Gonna throw a few things out there to give a little more perspective on what cops face daily, what some misconceptions might be regarding crime and law enforcement in general.




    This was the shortest link I could find covering Elder's statements on the issue.

    http://campaign.r20.constantcontact...86281&ca=313c456e-82e1-468a-a7e4-0b16a18837bc
     
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  2. smathis30

    smathis30 Helluva Engineer

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    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-are-so-many-black-americans-killed-by-police/This is definitely an issue I've been torn about for a while. Here is a much more in depth study that more or less plays a neutral take on the side that has links to other studies and possibly the one mentioned in the second video. The issue with that study, is that it comes from self-reported data and only in one city over one year so it's very limited in scope. As time progresses we'll get more data but that's the biggest obstacle along with reporting bias
     
  3. Whiskey_Clear

    Whiskey_Clear Banned

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  4. MWBATL

    MWBATL Helluva Engineer

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    I think there are problems on both sides here that need addressing. Far too many on both sides (cops and blacks) enter into interactions with a confrontational attitude which leads to quick escalation and violence. What concerns me is the focus on the one without the focus on the other. This is not really a racial issue per se. I think cops would be suspicious of any characteristic that has a record of much higher criminal 'misbehavior'.....skin color happens to be one that is easy to spot. Sicilian is tougher to see right away.

    Poverty is only apart of the problem. I say this because there are plenty of groups who have established communities in the USA and don't have the same track record of violence and crime (Vietnamese come to mind right away).

    The race card is a very, very difficult one to deal with. There is certainly racism...on both sides. But the claims of institutional racism that are holding black communities back economically is hard for me to agree with based on my own life observations. What does seem more apparent to me is that black communities have been systematically exploited for political gain by one party, who has preached for decades the story of institutional racism as a way to avoid taking responsibility for the shortcomings that exist.

    This isn't about skin color. Poor white communities have every bit as large a problem these days with drugs, especially opioids. And the drug problem is what is leading to so many other problems. But I do think that there is much more complexity in these issues than simple skin color.
     
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  5. kg01

    kg01 Get-Bak! Coach Featured Member

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    It's a multi-layered issue but if this is hard for you to believe the bolded, then I'm not sure where to start the discussion. I'm in no way questioning your intelligence. Clearly there are a lot of people who don't perceive that there are some very real differences in the American experience that depend specifically on the color of your skin.

    Honestly, the fact that you seem to suggest and accept that violence and crime are common characteristics of the black community is a bit disturbing.
     
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  6. Whiskey_Clear

    Whiskey_Clear Banned

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    I don't know @MWBATL's racial / genetic background but I think you might be making an assumption on it.

    As for your take on crime and violence....that's a tricky issue. I also don't think @MWBATL was stating crimevand violence is a common occurrence in the black community but I'll let him respond for himself.

    I don't think skin color has any affect on an individual's disposition or predisposition towards violence or crime. I think socioeconomic influences do have an affect. When one examines these issues and utilizes demographics in the examination, the statistics generally indicate a higher percentage of crime and violence in some of these demographics.

    Here are some crime stats regarding homicides from the FBI. Homicides are only one segment of violent crime but it probably ranks pretty high in order of importance in this debate.

    https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u....nt/expanded-homicide/expandhomicidemain_final

    A very large percentage of homicides involve domestic abuse. Narcotics related homicides probably comprise another large percentage.
     
  7. kg01

    kg01 Get-Bak! Coach Featured Member

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    I'm not assuming his make-up at all. Some of the most racist people I've encountered against black people have been black people themselves so nothing surprises me.

    See, the problem with the stats is that they don't tell the complete story. Crime tends to plague socioeconomically depressed areas. Due to a myriad of reasons, many black communities are socioeconomically depressed.

    As I said in the first post, if a person doesn't believe there are barriers to success for blacks that do no exist for other groups, it's easy to make the suggestion that black people don't want more and simply want to blame the 'system' for their failings. Therefore the crime in these areas is simply their natural behavior or is simply characteristic of their group.

    That's an incomplete assessment IMO. The stats paint an incomplete picture. It's basically saying, 'well all this crime happens here ... which has black population of x% ... therefore black people are predisposed to commit crimes.' I get that more descriptive language is used but that's the bottom line. So industry, schools, government, etc. all have that general slant. "Don't spend money on schools in this district, they're just gonna destroy it all or drop-out anyway." "Don't put businesses there, they won't come to work or buy anything. They're all on welfare."

    And as I describe these things, I imagine many roll their eyes. Here we go again, the 'system' is against you. These are real issues people face. It's gotten markedly better but prejudice is still alive and well among people with real power to make a difference.
     
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  8. smathis30

    smathis30 Helluva Engineer

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    For those of you that are interested in seeing what modern institutional racism looks like, the biggest most recent example of it would be housing policies in NOLA leading up to Katrina
     
  9. Whiskey_Clear

    Whiskey_Clear Banned

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    Very much agree. I'd like to see more federal spending on schools in depressed areas / inner cities. Those schools don't have the advantages, PTA funds and booster funds etc, that schools in affluent areas have. I'd also like to see more mentoring and after school programs for these schools. Show the young students in these areas what potential they truly have in ours society and how education can open limitless doors of opportunity to their futures.
     
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  10. Milwaukee

    Milwaukee Helluva Engineer

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    Please elaborate.
     
  11. MWBATL

    MWBATL Helluva Engineer

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    First, let me attempt to clarify. I am NOT saying crime is a common characteristic of the "black community". I actually think it is a terrible generalization to even talk about a "black community" as if there is some monolithic single social group who all think and act the same way simply because of skin color. I see many different communities, some are tied together by faith, some by school ties, some by politics, some by economics, etc. Fewer by simple skin color.

    The problems are incredibly complex. I do think there are sub segments of society which are more prone to violence. Not tied specifically to racial identity.

    I think #kg01 and I would agree on 90-95% of our views. I happen to think there is more than simply Socio-economic condition that contributes to problems though. I think there are expectations and comparisons. I think sometimes behavior is condoned and forgiven when it should not be. These factors are NOT the primary reason for these problems but they do exacerbate them, imho. In any society, there are always "us" vs "them" issues. Go live in the U.K. and you will be shocked at the racial hatred between English and Irish. View any African society and there are tribal rivalries and hatred as strong as the racial issues here. It is not a skin color problem....to say that America is "racist" oversimplifies as much as saying blacks are more prone to crime.

    It is extremely complex. And no one amongst us can really hear or see it completely from the other's perspective. We....just...can't. I completely appreciate others' views and perspectives and try my best to listen. Life is never fair and there are always prejudices one has to overcome. #kg01 may see the difficulties of being black in America as being undeniably worse than say being redneck in Boston (stretching for a comparison) but the truth is, he doesn't know.....just as the redneck doesn't know what it is like to be black in America. It's really complicated.

    On a simpler note, please explain what the housing policy in New Orleans was pre Katrina? Since the city was run by Democratic and usually black city government for decades before Katrina, I am wondering what this refers to? My own understanding is that it was pretty simple......poor folks got the low lying land because they higher ground was more expensive. Not sure why that on itself is racial. Economic? Yes. Racial? Dunno 'bout that. New Orleans has historically been a complex society with some of the fiercest racial divisions in America sitting right alongside some of the most integrated practices around. Again.....a very complex mix.....
     
  12. MWBATL

    MWBATL Helluva Engineer

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    While I don't think the exact solution of more federal spending on schools is the solution, I do ABSOLUTELY agree that the keys are twofold:
    1) education is essential
    2) making sure we as a society fulfill the promise that ANYONE, regardless of race, gender or economic background, can go as far as they want is the second key.

    Far too many of our youth simply don't believe....so they give up at an early age. This is (in part) what I refer to when I criticize an overwhelming media narrative of this country being a racist society. We MUST make society color and class blind and follow MLK's words to judge a person by the quality of their character. And we need to talk up the successes and progress so that young people don't give up before they ever get to high school. Far too many do.
     
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  13. bwelbo

    bwelbo Helluva Engineer

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    Yet another thread where the solution is The Gospel. It has always been the answer and always will be the answer.

    The answer always has truth from both sides. Police do have a difficult job. But our country has a multi-hundred year generational history from slavery to doing experimental medical testing on black people to jim crow to discriminatory lending and housing and on and on and on. Stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason. The reason why some black people are scared of police and don't trust them is because they've been given many reasons to be scared and to lack trust. We need calmness, understanding, and love on all sides. When a video is posted of a cop being calm, cool, and respectful, it goes viral. And vice versa. Most of us are good and loving people at heart and want peace and freedom and harmony. Look at the recovery in Houston and Florida where people are doing whatever it takes to help regardless of color or anything else.

    I was recently doing some research on lynchings in my state and, well, you can just pick any one story of many. A black guy and a few white guys were just out for a few beers and a joke went bad (this is in the early 1900s), and literally for nothing other than that, they took him down to the river's edge. The gouged out his eyes, cut off his tongue, cut off his genitals, and let him suffer like that until eventually tying him to a heavy object and drowning him in the river. Yes that was a century ago, but descendants of his relatives still live in the area and can retell that story. How do you think that impacts their experience when they have a couple decades maybe of mostly free living, but bolstered by several generations going back hundreds of years of nothing but shear terror. His last thoughts on this earth were probably that nobody would ever know his story (luckily when he was missing his relatives starting asking around, heard rumors, and went and dredged the river and found him) and the terrorists who did this would never be brought to justice (they weren't).
     
  14. Milwaukee

    Milwaukee Helluva Engineer

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    Hate crimes happen all the time, unfortunately. What exactly are you insinuating with your last paragraph?

    http://wate.com/2017/01/03/10-years-since-christian-newsom-murder-in-knoxville/
     
  15. Whiskey_Clear

    Whiskey_Clear Banned

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    A tad off topic. I don't think anyone disputes our nation's history of institutional racism. Or that horrid racist attacks have occurred both north and south of the Mason Dixon line. Where your reasoning has the most merit in this thread is with instances of police brutality against peaceful demonstrators during the Civil Rights era, Selma etc. Shameful stains on law enforcement. We are a couple generations removed from that era now however.

    With regard to your statement on the Gospel. It may be an unpopular sentiment today but I believe it does have merit. The dissolution of nuclear families is imo the biggest factor in our societal woes. This is rapidly expanding in the demographic of white Americans and will have significant consequences as it continues to spread. Sadly I don't see many signs indicating it won't spread further nationally across all demographics.
     
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  16. AE 87

    AE 87 Helluva Engineer

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    I both agree with some of this and disagree with other of this.

    First of all, I agree (and I hope I am understanding you correctly) that there are systemic issues which have led to the socioeconomic depression of many black communities. I personally suspect that racism and response to racism are at the root of some of these systemic issues. Here's a link that argues FDR's "New Deal" policies exacerbated racial segregation. While that article doesn't go into the effects of LBJ's "Great Society," it does mention the Fair Housing Act which enabled those African Americans who had money to move with the rest of the middle class from the cities to the suburbs (a good thing obviously in itself). However, as a result, the sections of cities which had been segregated as African American by New Deal policies were now poor African Americans.

    Furthermore, housing was unfortunately only part of the segregation problem which the FDR years established in our country. The New Deal policies--which responded to the Great Depression by increasing the involvement of the Federal government in society--not only did not challenge Jim Crow and "separate but equal" laws, they embraced them. The Federal Government invested a lot of money in programs that favored whites over blacks and increased segregation. Some African Americans labeled the National Recovery Act, the "Negro Removal Act."

    So, following WWII, as southern agriculture became more industrialized, many African Americans continued the migration to Northern cities which had begun during the Great Depression. They moved into a still segregated society where there was still discrimination over the types of jobs which could be done by them. While the New Deal had provided a safety net, it was administered differently for whites and blacks. Here's another link on FDR, the New Deal and race.

    During the early years of the New Deal, its something was better than the nothing done by the Republicans to respond to the impact of the Great Depression on the African American community, and blacks which had supported the party of Lincoln largely moved to the Democratic Party already by 1996.

    Still, the making things worse aspect of this legislation led to the racial tensions that ultimately led the Civil Rights movement of the 1950's and early 1960's. The most strident opposition to Civil Rights legislation still came from the southern Democrats who got their way with the New Deal legislation. However, after the 1964 Civil Rights Act was passed, LBJ was able to address the problems with even more expanded government intervention, including legal action against localities that discriminated on the basis of race in distribution of government assistance. When you combine these actions with the expanded Federal government assistance, there was established another systemic link between race and poverty.

    While its harder to find convenient discussions correlating the [hopefully unintended] consequences to these governmental actions, here's where we stand (link): (1) Half of Black Americans born poor stay poor; (2) Most Black middle class kids are downwardly mobile; (3) Black wealth barely exists; (4) Most Black families are headed by a single parent; (5) Black students attend worse schools.

    In my opinion, the disparities between African Americans and others in these five areas arise from the systemic racism of the policies enacted especially over the last 100 years. However, they can't be separated from the racist context in which they began. I'll come back to these bullets in a bit.

    However, I disagree with your characterization of the opposing views as, "well all this crime happens here ... which has black population of x% ... therefore black people are predisposed to commit crimes," "Don't spend money on schools in this district, they're just gonna destroy it all or drop-out anyway," and "Don't put businesses there, they won't come to work or buy anything. They're all on welfare." I do agree that the issues you raise are real issues, but I disagree that the motivation really boils down to the bottom line of explicit racist claim about all black people.

    Your statements describe a predominantly African American community with a high crime rate, low graduation-rate schools, and without a strong local business presence. Assuming that's an accurate description of a representative community (which your quotes seem to suggest), would you move your family into such a community given a choice? If you answer in the negative, are you a racist? Fwiw, I think most bias by police or businesses regarding such a community likewise stems from the same concerns which would prevent a family from choosing to move in. While some may be motivated by racism, I suspect that most are not making a sweeping judgment about all African Americans, but about what's best for them in that particular context.

    The issue of schools is also important, but again, I don't think it's motivated by racism. For one thing, we already spend a lot of money on schools, so money may not be the best metric. In my opinion, for what it's worth, one of the five bleak statistics which I mentioned earlier stands above the others in its significance, and that's #4. While I think single parents can do a remarkable job, it is just much more difficult. I also think that this phenomenon has largely arisen because of the systemic racism discussed above. I think it affects the likelihood of success in school and in life.

    Still, I also agree that discrimination still exists in society at large in terms of finding and advancing in jobs as well as in housing and other areas. That being said, it's not nearly as bad as it was even in my lifetime. On top of that, there are now factors both built in to the system by government and within society at large which act in the opposite direction. So, I think that conversation that doesn't acknowledge the change in American society on this issue.

    As I've said before, I'm a fan of Shelby Steele's work in this area (Link).
     
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  17. Whiskey_Clear

    Whiskey_Clear Banned

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    Again getting a bit derailed. Yes race and racism, both explicit and implicit, is cited as the primary reason for officer bias and excessive uses of force. Even when the officers involved are themselves minorities.

    Try keeping the topics focused on law enforcement in particular rather than racism in general.
     
  18. bwelbo

    bwelbo Helluva Engineer

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    My entire post (not just the last paragraph) is to help explain why black people (and others) have such a different view of authorities than white people, and why some of their reactions and behaviors during interactions with police are the way they are. I've never been black ;) and I try not to make comments on people's behalf where I really have no first hand experience, so I am more just relating the things I've heard over time and the explanations for it.
     
  19. Whiskey_Clear

    Whiskey_Clear Banned

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  20. bwelbo

    bwelbo Helluva Engineer

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    That is sad indeed. Mental illness is real. But by everything I've read, this was a valid shoot. I really feel for his family and for the officers involved. You can't wait and let an assailant have a chance to kill you before you decide if they're being honest about their threat or not. By all the details in this article, you can tell the family and Scout have struggled with mental illness for probably most of his life.
     

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