Conference Realignment

[orientalnc]

They killed themselves. They went D1 about 2000 and had to drop down to D3 about 3 or 4 years later because they were just bleeding so much money. Looks like they never recovered from that.

This is so wrong as to not warrant a comeback. You are completely wrong.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I'm sorry to hear this. As a kid, I was a batboy when the baseball team came to town. It doesn't surprise me though. For one, it is estimated that 25% of all 4-year colleges will close in the coming few years. There are simply too many for the demand. State schools will do fine, of course .. as will schools with endowments and able boards of trustees. Others, some of which I know very well, are in deep, deep trouble. B-S closing is but the canary in the coal mine.

I was always impressed with people I knew who graduated from there. Have loved this school from afar for a long time.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

This is so wrong as to not warrant a comeback. You are completely wrong.

Yeah, I was getting ready to respond too. Football had zero to do with this.

Economic impact on Alabama of this school closing with be huge.

 

[Vespidae]

Economic impact on Alabama of this school closing with be huge.

Hard to say. The enrollment wasn’t that large. A similar college closed some time ago and the core campus repurposed into a prep school. I don’t even recall a blip at its closing. Other universities will easily absorb the students and the campus property, which sits west of Birmingham in a residential area will easily be redeveloped.

 

[orientalnc]

Hard to say. The enrollment wasn’t that large. A similar college closed some time ago and the core campus repurposed into a prep school. I don’t even recall a blip at its closing. Other universities will easily absorb the students and the campus property, which sits west of Birmingham in a residential area will easily be redeveloped.

BSC is located almost next door to Legion Field. I have not been to the campus since I left Bham, but I don't know that it will "easily be redeveloped." That part of the city (and it's in the city) is not what I would "prime" for redevelopment. But, I agree with you that the impact on Bham will be small and likely short term.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Hard to say. The enrollment wasn’t that large. A similar college closed some time ago and the core campus repurposed into a prep school. I don’t even recall a blip at its closing. Other universities will easily absorb the students and the campus property, which sits west of Birmingham in a residential area will easily be redeveloped.

I was basing this on an economic impact report I read but you are right, impossible to predict the impact.

 

[Vespidae]

I was basing this on an economic impact report I read but you are right, impossible to predict the impact.

I remember when the Birmingham Race Track was being justified. The original impact report wasn't that great. So, they redid it and magically, it was a slam dunk. It didn't make it.

 

[TooTall]

This is so wrong as to not warrant a comeback. You are completely wrong.

Yeah, I was getting ready to respond too. Football had zero to do with this.

The decision to jump from D3 to D1 (all sports, not just football) strained their finances so sever that 17 years from moving back to D3, they close down. The reason...not because they couldn't get the loan from the state of Alabama, but because of poor financial decisions, like the jump to D1. The state didn't see loaning them 30 million dollars as being a loan that could be repaid. A 1,200 enrollment should be able to keep the school open, but the previous administration doomed them.

Similar circumstance happened at the college (Newberry College) I attended, which was at 700 students when I was there (2002-2006). Poor financial management lead to new administration in the early 2000's, which made sever cuts, and was rocky for a while, but is now growing stronger by the day. It took a while to add the new sports, new athletic facilities, new dorms and now even new degree fields that will lead us to University status in the near future. The enrollment is now 1,300, and we are still in the same D2 conference we were in since the Regan administration.

Per New York Times: "The school has been mired in debt for years. The 2009 recession, and then the coronavirus pandemic worsened the toll of expensive campus investments and a dwindling endowment."

Point is, the transition to D1 in the early 2000's started the slide to where they are now and they have no one to blame but themselves.

 

[Vespidae]

Point is, the transition to D1 in the early 2000's started the slide to where they are now and they have no one to blame but themselves.

Maybe. I don't know enough about Birmingham-Southern's internal finances but this is what was reported:

"Publicly available financial documents show that the college has operated at a deficit for eight of the last 10 fiscal years. At the same time, Birmingham-Southern’s enrollment has slipped from more than 1,500 students in fall 2010, according to federal data, to 731 last fall, according to numbers the college listed in legal documents.

Serious missteps by past administrations have also contributed to the closure. In 2010, a major financial aid error was discovered in which BSC incorrectly calculated Pell Grant awards, overpaying by millions. Steep budget cuts and significant layoffs soon followed, and the college faced a revolving door of presidents. The college also depleted its endowment, tapping the funds for building projects and other needs. In Tuesday's press release, Coleman noted that when he took office in 2018, the college had a history of drawing heavily on its endowment to cover operating losses. Once valued at more than $110 million, BSC’s endowment withered to roughly $51 million by fiscal year 2022.

After years of serious operational issues, Birmingham-Southern warned in December 2022 that it could close in May 2023, citing more than a decade of financial stress."

State schools are funded by property taxes so the financial crash of 2009 and even Covid had little to no effect on state universities. Private schools like B-S have to rely on their endowments. I know several other schools that like B-S have blown their endowment and are struggling to stay afloat. I think the sports program had far less to do with it (I could be wrong) than the drawdown of the endowment. That's probably why the state refused to get involved.

 

[Techster]

BSC is located almost next door to Legion Field. I have not been to the campus since I left Bham, but I don't know that it will "easily be redeveloped." That part of the city (and it's in the city) is not what I would "prime" for redevelopment. But, I agree with you that the impact on Bham will be small and likely short term.

The company I use to work for did equity deals in Birmingham. That was ten years ago...which is a lifetime ago in the PE game. Not sure how it is now as I'm no longer in that realm of PE, but if there's an opportunity, rest assured some opportunistic group will find a way to make it happen.

The major markets tend to have the bigger deals, but the secondary and tertiary markets I've found get more "bang for the buck". Deals are getting harder in the bigger markets, so you see a lot of deal flow now in the tertiary markets.

 

[Buzztheirazz]

Ironically, coaches like Dan Quinn went all in for rugby style tackling 10 years ago, to avoid head injuries. Now, the NFL is creating rules against it because offensive players are getting lower leg injuries.

I’m not sure what you mean by “decline”—maybe you mean viewership—but the game doesn’t play like it did in the 1970’s.

Yes. Viewership and interest in the NFL.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

The decision to jump from D3 to D1 (all sports, not just football) strained their finances so sever that 17 years from moving back to D3, they close down. The reason...not because they couldn't get the loan from the state of Alabama, but because of poor financial decisions, like the jump to D1. The state didn't see loaning them 30 million dollars as being a loan that could be repaid. A 1,200 enrollment should be able to keep the school open, but the previous administration doomed them.

Similar circumstance happened at the college (Newberry College) I attended, which was at 700 students when I was there (2002-2006). Poor financial management lead to new administration in the early 2000's, which made sever cuts, and was rocky for a while, but is now growing stronger by the day. It took a while to add the new sports, new athletic facilities, new dorms and now even new degree fields that will lead us to University status in the near future. The enrollment is now 1,300, and we are still in the same D2 conference we were in since the Regan administration.

Per New York Times: "The school has been mired in debt for years. The 2009 recession, and then the coronavirus pandemic worsened the toll of expensive campus investments and a dwindling endowment."

Point is, the transition to D1 in the early 2000's started the slide to where they are now and they have no one to blame but themselves.

What is your source for the financial problems being directly related to D1 sports? I’m just curious because normally athletic budgets are totally separate from operating budgets.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I remember when the Birmingham Race Track was being justified. The original impact report wasn't that great. So, they redid it and magically, it was a slam dunk. It didn't make it.

Birmingham is a different kind of place for sure

 

[orientalnc]

The decision to jump from D3 to D1 (all sports, not just football) strained their finances so sever that 17 years from moving back to D3, they close down. The reason...not because they couldn't get the loan from the state of Alabama, but because of poor financial decisions, like the jump to D1. The state didn't see loaning them 30 million dollars as being a loan that could be repaid. A 1,200 enrollment should be able to keep the school open, but the previous administration doomed them.

Similar circumstance happened at the college (Newberry College) I attended, which was at 700 students when I was there (2002-2006). Poor financial management lead to new administration in the early 2000's, which made sever cuts, and was rocky for a while, but is now growing stronger by the day. It took a while to add the new sports, new athletic facilities, new dorms and now even new degree fields that will lead us to University status in the near future. The enrollment is now 1,300, and we are still in the same D2 conference we were in since the Regan administration.

Per New York Times: "The school has been mired in debt for years. The 2009 recession, and then the coronavirus pandemic worsened the toll of expensive campus investments and a dwindling endowment."

Point is, the transition to D1 in the early 2000's started the slide to where they are now and they have no one to blame but themselves.

BSC played football until 1939, when they disbanded the team due to costs. They restarted their football program as a DIII team in 2007 when they moved all their sports to DIII. They had DI sports, but not football, prior to 2007. Maybe they were wrong to have a football team at any level, but they hoped it would help them survive. Football at DI was never part of BSC.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

BSC played football until 1939, when they disbanded the team due to costs. They restarted their football program as a DIII team in 2007 when they moved all their sports to DIII. They had DI sports, but not football, prior to 2007. Maybe they were wrong to have a football team at any level, but they hoped it would help them survive. Football at DI was never part of BSC.

Sounds more like the UAB story than BSC.

 

[orientalnc]

Sounds more like the UAB story than BSC.

UAB (my grad school) never had intercollegiate sports until 1979 when they started men's basketball and soccer. I was at the first basketball game. They started football in 1991, then temporarily disbanded the program because of costs, only to restart it the next year when alums threw money at the program. The Blazers have always been DI.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

UAB (my grad school) never had intercollegiate sports until 1979 when they started men's basketball and soccer. I was at the first basketball game. They started football in 1991, then temporarily disbanded the program because of costs, only to restart it the next year when alums threw money at the program. The Blazers have always been DI.

They started out for two years as D-III (91-92) then moved to D-IAA (93-95) before moving to FBS. Then they disbanded (2015) the team before bringing it back (2017).

UAB Blazers football - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[orientalnc]

They started out for two years as D-III (91-92) then moved to D-IAA (93-95) before moving to FBS. Then they disbanded (2015) the team before bringing it back (2017).

UAB Blazers football - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Thanks, I had forgotten about that. I was not a big fan of the football program, so I admit to not paying close attention. When they briefly shut down the program I didn't complain.

 

[slugboy]

I’m not sure if FSU’s lawyers are geniuses or desperate. I’m also not sure about the ACC lawyers.

DocumentCloud

www.documentcloud.org

If the facts are against you, argue the law. If the law is against you, argue the facts. If the law and the facts are against you, pound the table and yell like hell. — Carl Sandburg

I also feel like the legal filings need some of the same labels as Sandía used for nuclear waste storage

Long-term nuclear waste warning messages - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[orientalnc]

I’m not sure if FSU’s lawyers are geniuses or desperate. I’m also not sure about the ACC lawyers.

I think both sides have competent legal teams. The problem FSU has is the GOR they signed. Their lawyers are like me when I was a college student trying to score with the females at the student center. If my first line failed, I tried another, and another, and another, until at last I gave up or the target female decided it was time for her next class. I don't blame the FSU lawyers for trying this latest tactic, but they can't make the GOR go away.