Conference Realignment

[Augusta_Jacket]

Where did you get your law degree from?

I've never understood this argument. We're on a board discussing college athletics when only a handful of us here have actually played competitive athletics in college. Does the fact that most of this board has never played sports in college mean only a select few have opinions that can be considered valid?

As far as law school goes, I'll answer this even though you didn't ask it of me. I majored in Government at the US Coast Guard Academy. Government majors were often used as pre-law degrees for those who chose to pursue careers in the JAG Corps. I chose not to pursue that path, but I had several classes that dealt with how law works within the framework of the US Code of Law. My current job is as a Subject Matter Expert for both title 49 CFR & title 40 CFR as well as approving and vetting contracts for my site. I may not be a lawyer, but I have a pretty strong background in working with legal documents. There are certainly others here who have more law background than I do, I am not arguing that.

Now, what it your legal background?

 

[CEB]

You guys don't seem to understand that leaving without your media rights is not possible. Might as well claim that leaving a the top floor of a burning building is possible because you can jump out of the window.

You don’t seem to understand that the intent of the document is to prevent schools from leaving. That’s the GOAL! Everyone knew it. Everyone agreed to it.
It is ABSOULTELY financially devastating to leave… just as they (all 15 of them, including FSU) intended.
But you can leave. You option is to forego your media rights or negotiate a repurchase. It wasn’t designed to be easy.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

Plus the FSU BOT said when signing the document that it was great because it would make it economically difficult for any team to leave the conference. They knew that. They understood that. They signed it because that is exactly what they wanted.

Do you still have the link to that quote? I remember him gloating about how this made it impossible for teams to leave the ACC now.

 

[RonJohn]

I think in a civil contract dispute like this, FSU *can* do a lot of things here, even those that the contract says they can't, and the most pertinent question is "what would a court enforce in a suit about breach of contract?"

For instance, I don't think the ACC can actually refuse to take money in exchange for voiding the GOR. I don't think a court would be willing to use police force to let them get away with it. Even in the extreme case that FSU said "were just going to ignore the ACC contracts completely" and the Big 10 went along and sent in their own TV crews for the games, is it likely that a court would say "we're going to send the police to FSU home games to make sure they let the ACC crews broadcast their games and prevent the Big 10 crew from broadcasting the game"? Or would a court be much more likely to say "no, we're going to rule against you and enforce hundreds of millions in damages"? I've seen a fair number of multi-million contracts get renegotiated because one party decided to play hardball and stop paying, I haven't seen them turn into police actions.

Does anyone have examples of where a court in a similar situation would rule to enforce performance of a contract like that vs just awarding $$$$ for breaking the contract?

FSU could refuse to allow ESPN TV crews on campus. There could be lawsuits over not performing the contractual requirements in allowing the ESPN crews to access the events. I doubt that FSU would take that route because it would mean no broadcasts at all of their games.

The media rights and GOR on the other hand are an ownership issue. FSU can't sell what it doesn't own. The other media companies are not going to send TV crews if they know that the Big10 and FSU don't own the media rights. They probably won't even send a TV crew if there is a dispute about ownership of the media rights. Copyright law is extremely punitive. FSU, the Big10, the broadcast network, and any TV stations that aired games could be on the line to be sued for damages. If it is known that the media rights belong to the ACC, it is possible that criminal charges could be filed. On top of that, the media companies wouldn't want to get away with something to broadcast such games because that would open the door for Disney and other companies to broadcast material that they own the rights to using the same arguments.

 

[WreckinGT]

I've never understood this argument. We're on a board discussing college athletics when only a handful of us here have actually played competitive athletics in college. Does the fact that most of this board has never played sports in college mean only a select few have opinions that can be considered valid?

As far as law school goes, I'll answer this even though you didn't ask it of me. I majored in Government at the US Coast Guard Academy. Government majors were often used as pre-law degrees for those who chose to pursue careers in the JAG Corps. I chose not to pursue that path, but I had several classes that dealt with how law works within the framework of the US Code of Law. My current job is a Subject Matter Expert for both title 49 CFR & title 40 CFR as well as approving and vetting contracts for my site. I may not be a lawyer, but I have a pretty strong background in working with legal documents. There are certainly others here who have more law background than I do, I am not arguing that.

Now, what it your legal background?

None. Ive been very clear on that. I usually only give that response when someone questions my lack of interpretation into legalese. If you are going to claim superior knowledge in the realm of the law then I want to see receipts.

 

[WreckinGT]

You don’t seem to understand that the intent of the document is to prevent schools from leaving. That’s the GOAL! Everyone knew it. Everyone agreed to it.
It is ABSOULTELY financially devastating to leave… just as they (all 15 of them, including FSU) intended.
But you can leave. You option is to forego your media rights or negotiate a repurchase. It wasn’t designed to be easy.

Ok, the goal is to prevent teams from leaving, but you are also arguing that teams will start leaving in the 2030-2033 range well before the GOR ends. How does that make sense?

 

[yeti92]

I think you and others here are cherry picking which words you want to have meaning and which ones you want to ignore while pretending you have legal expertise.

Which words do you think are being ignored?

I am by no means a lawyer or legal expert and have never claimed to be, but I do have to review multi-million dollar contracts on a daily basis and consult with our legal team about possible issues with said contracts, and I have multiple lawyers in my immediate family including a mother that would have defecated building materials if she knew I had signed anything I hadn't fully read and understood what I was agreeing to beforehand.

You guys don't seem to understand that leaving without your media rights is not possible. Might as well claim that leaving a the top floor of a burning building is possible because you can jump out of the window.

More hyperbole that has already been disproven. Many athletic departments exist without the guaranteed financial income FSU receives for its media rights. It will hurt compared to where they are at now, but it is not impossible.

One side has argued tooth and nail that the GOR is iron clad and that the ACC will not entertain the idea of selling media rights back to FSU, yet I don't think any of these people would put a substantial wager on FSU still being here for the duration of the GOR.

And more hyperbole. Nobody has argued that the ACC will not entertain the idea of selling media rights back to FSU, only that they are not obligated to.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

Ok, the goal is to prevent teams from leaving, but you are also arguing that teams will start leaving in the 2030-2033 range well before the GOR ends. How does that make sense?

Because it becomes more "affordable" to leave then. You would only have to buy out a few seasons worth of rights vs more than a decades worth of them.

IF the ACC were to implode, I would bet on 2033-2034 as the initial years of the exodus.

 

[WreckinGT]

And more hyperbole. Nobody has argued that the ACC will not entertain the idea of selling media rights back to FSU, only that they are not obligated to.

Plenty of people have. Try to keep up. Im eager to hear your opinion as well though. Do you personally think FSU is going to be in the ACC in 2035?

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

Plenty of people have. Try to keep up. Im eager to hear your opinion as well though. Do you personally think FSU is going to be in the ACC in 2035?

You drag the goal posts all around this thread...

 

[CEB]

Ok, the goal is to prevent teams from leaving, but you are also arguing that teams will start leaving in the 2030-2033 range well before the GOR ends. How does that make sense?

Can I link you back to my previous post somehow?

 

[WreckinGT]

Because it becomes more "affordable" to leave then. You would only have to buy out a few seasons worth of rights vs more than a decades worth of them.

IF the ACC were to implode, I would bet on 2033-2034 as the initial years of the exodus.

Affordable for who? The teams paying the buyouts? FSU is ready for that now. You guys are arguing the ACC won't accept the check.

 

[RonJohn]

Do you still have the link to that quote? I remember him gloating about how this made it impossible for teams to leave the ACC now.

You can find it here: DELETED

Another trustee, Mark Hillis, commented, "I was in concert with President Barron that this was the best thing that could happen. It ensures that we don't lose any members. Nobody can afford to leave now."

EDIT: I put in the wrong link: https://www.forbes.com/sites/karenw...on-should-it-stay-in-the-acc/?sh=10f5ce5a2af9

 

[WreckinGT]

You drag the goal posts all around this thread...

Im just trying to make the point that hardly any of you actually believe what you are saying. You all know FSU isn't going to be here in 2035 and will be gone before the GOR expires.

 

[yeti92]

Plenty of people have. Try to keep up. Im eager to hear your opinion as well though. Do you personally think FSU is going to be in the ACC in 2035?

Who? Can you quote them for us?

No, I don't expect so. Their media rights might still be, but I don't think they will.

Affordable for who? The teams paying the buyouts? FSU is ready for that now. You guys are arguing the ACC won't accept the check.

FSU is literally not ready for that now, that's why they are suing to lower the potential financial burden.

 

[WreckinGT]

FSU is literally not ready for that now, that's why they are suing to lower the potential financial burden.

FSU is actively fund raising and working with private equity firms to front the money for the buyout. Sure they are going to try to get it reduced, but they are gone no matter what the price is.

 

[Richard7125]

Who? Can you quote them for us?

No, I don't expect so. Their media rights might still be, but I don't think they will.


FSU is literally not ready for that now, that's why they are suing to lower the potential financial burden.

I think most agree FSU wants out. How much would the ACC be willing to accept to let them out now or (2025/2026)?

 

[cpf2001]

FSU could refuse to allow ESPN TV crews on campus. There could be lawsuits over not performing the contractual requirements in allowing the ESPN crews to access the events. I doubt that FSU would take that route because it would mean no broadcasts at all of their games.

The media rights and GOR on the other hand are an ownership issue. FSU can't sell what it doesn't own. The other media companies are not going to send TV crews if they know that the Big10 and FSU don't own the media rights. They probably won't even send a TV crew if there is a dispute about ownership of the media rights. Copyright law is extremely punitive. FSU, the Big10, the broadcast network, and any TV stations that aired games could be on the line to be sued for damages. If it is known that the media rights belong to the ACC, it is possible that criminal charges could be filed. On top of that, the media companies wouldn't want to get away with something to broadcast such games because that would open the door for Disney and other companies to broadcast material that they own the rights to using the same arguments.

I find it hard to believe the feds would start a criminal case when the contract that assigns the rights is the one in dispute versus leaving it to civil court to sort out penalties.

But you are absolutely right that that hypothetical doesn’t get off the ground because no party other than FSU, including their future conferences and media partners, currently want those contracts to be meaningless.

But what if ESPN opts out? Is there a window for another league plus media partner - or even ESPN themselves - to also switch camps to “that GOR shouldn’t be enforceable after the media contract ended”? At that point can the ACC convince anyone to make a criminal case out of it to actually refuse to let FSU out of that contact with $$$ penalty? The dispute isn’t over IF copyright law is valid, it’s over a contract about those specific rights in this specific circumstance.

In reality it probably doesn’t get even that far still, but I find it hard to believe that the ACC could actually pull off refusing to let FSU out until 2036. If the contract has gone that wrong it’s hard to see a court enforcing a suicide pact.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

@WreckinGT

An FSU trustee when the GOR was signed: "Another trustee, Mark Hillis, commented, "I was in concert with President Barron that this was the best thing that could happen. It ensures that we don't lose any members. Nobody can afford to leave now.""

Florida State Once Again Is Facing An Important Question. Should It Stay In The ACC?

The Big Ten and the Southeastern Conference’s media rights deals have blown through the $1 billion a year mark, leaving each ACC school with an average annual rights fee of $17 million, far behind their wealthier counterparts, according to a chart presented at the trustees meeting.

www.forbes.com

Hard to argue FSU didn't know what it was getting into...

 

[cpf2001]

FSU is actively fund raising and working with private equity firms to front the money for the buyout. Sure they are going to try to get it reduced, but they are gone no matter what the price is.

Whether or not they succeed in doing that by 2025, 2026, …, 2030, … is under a lot of debate in this thread, very few are taking a “it will never happen even by 2036” position.

Assuming they get themselves some PE money to get out in the next couple of years, though, I’m looking forward to the future bankruptcy and collapse and stripping-down of the AD. Somehow I suspect there might be some naïveté on the part of university officials and trustees who want to hop into THAT bed…