1. Welcome to Georgia Tech Swarm! JOIN US and be a part of the SWARM! GO JACKETS! THWg!

Charlottesville

Discussion in 'The Swarm Lounge' started by Whiskey_Clear, Aug 16, 2017.

  1. Whiskey_Clear

    Whiskey_Clear Helluva Engineer

    Messages:
    9,249
    I probably shouldn't even open this can of worms. But my goodness how divisive many in our country have become. It's kinda sad to think this path we are on shows little signs of slowing down or changing course.

    It troubles and aggravates me that so many believe what they perceive as their own moral high ground grants them the right to violently prohibit other American's rights to free speech. No matter how vile one finds that speech to be, this should not be tolerated by any faction.

    As for Charlottesville itself. My prayers for those who were injured in the car attack, may God help them to recover completely. Prayers for the families of those who were slain. What a horrid waste of life and what a vile act of hatred. It's truly incomprehensible.

    I think the involved law enforcement agencies, mayor, and governor of Virginia have some explaining to do. This event needs to be thoroughly analyzed to determine what could have been done to limit or prevent all of the violence and violations of law that occurred before, during, and after the improvised vehicle attack occurred.

    This needs to be done because similar incidents have occurred in other states with similar results that could also have led to a loss of life. And future such incidents are likely to occur.

    I hate racial supremacists, particularly white supremacists. Their ideologies are unfathomable to me. As much as I disdain them though, they do have Constitutional protections to express their ignorant ideologies, as un-American as I find them to be. Those willing to allow their nonsense to be silenced through violence or that excuse such violence due to a "moral high ground" rationale are also espousing a belief that flies in the face of all of our Constitutional rights.

    As for the current debate over confederate statues and monuments. As a small child I never could quite understand the abundant presence of them throughout the state and nation. They seemed at a minimum somewhat un-American to my young eyes. I understand the history behind them a little better now. I understand some of the southern anger generated from post Civil War actions upon southern states. In my eyes that pales in comparison, to say the least, to the continuing transgressions perpetrated on black Americans in the post Civil War era and continuing through the Civil Rights movement. I can understand how black Americans can and do find these monuments to be personal affronts and hateful to them. I can't say it would bother me at all to see them removed from public places.

    I understand other people see those monuments completely differently than I do. I know many view the Civil War as a state's rights movement more than a slavery issue. I see things a bit different but my opinion carries no greater relevance than theirs does. Even if removed these monuments should probably be preserved in some manner. I think it would be folly to attempt to erase portions of our history we might not be proud of. Regardless, I agree the decisions on the fate of these monuments should be resolved by the city, county, and state governments that have jurisdiction over them.

    One must also ask, where does the monument removal movement end? Should the Washington Monument and Jefferson Memorial be destroyed because they themselves owned slaves? Should the Lincoln Memorial be destroyed because Lincoln didn't take a more strident stand to abolish slavery before the war or at an earlier time during it? Should their great acts and achievements be erased from history due to their other personal faults? Again I think that would be folly.

    Think carefully before responding and do so with caution. It will be very easy to have a mistatement misunderstood and potentially vilified.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2017
    Animal02 likes this.
  2. northgajacket

    northgajacket Banned

    Messages:
    1,079
    The country is probably the most polarized since I have been born. I could imagine the Vietnam era was pretty polarizing as well, but I didn't live through that time period so I can only judge from old newscasts and literature. I am worried about this upcoming weekend now that the rhetoric seems to be worse.
     
    Animal02, THWG and Whiskey_Clear like this.
  3. LibertyTurns

    LibertyTurns Helluva Engineer

    Messages:
    1,990
    Well, some smart men once declared, pledging their lives, fortunes and sacred honor that:

    ....We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. .... whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them to seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

    http://memory.loc.gov/service/rbc/bdsdcc/02101/0001.jpg

    Our country has lost its way. An imperfect union at its inception, we have a proud and glorious history but not one void of history we would prefer to go back in time & change if possible. That being said, our great nation is still the envy of the rest of the world, unmatched in the liberties we enjoy. Notwithstanding our constitution is being perverted by extreme factions, now seen by many as mainstream, that have eroded our liberties and undermined the very people they have sworn to protect.

    We have put these people in positions of power by abdicating our responsibility to demand effective leadership at all levels of government. We have overlooked their transgressions by deluding ourselves that "they are better than the alternative". Maybe in 2yrs & in 4yrs the people will have the good sense to provide pink slips to these currently in power that lack the capacity to effectively govern, recruit capable statesman and leaders to replace them, and have the judgment to set aside personal gain for the good of our country when they cast their votes.
     
    CTJacket, ThatGuy and Whiskey_Clear like this.
  4. OldJacketFan

    OldJacketFan Helluva Engineer

    Messages:
    8,195
    I rarely comment on current political issues facing this country for a variety of reasons. Nonetheless I cannot sit back and be silent on what occurred in Charlottesville over the weekend. The country along with it allies fought long and arduous war to rid this world of a genocidal form of government that was allowed to come to power while the people of Germany sat silently. The promise of world standing, jobs, defeat of the communists and the rightful place of the German people seduced an educated populace and they blinded themselves to horrors to come. There can be no excuse sufficient enough to allow the specter of those horrors to ever exist again. I am so mindful on the wonderful document known as the U.S. Constitution and the rights it guarantees it citizens and non citizens alike, I had multiple family members fight in WWII to defeat the enemy that wants to renew itself and resurface in the country I love. I will not stand idly by and allow this happen, it must not be allowed to happen. Yes, the constitution guarantees the right of free speech, even hateful speech that is appalling to most rational people, though it have been rightfully narrowed by the SCOTUS. I realize that preventing free speech of a group I have absolute disdain for is not something to taken lightly or without understanding of the possible consequences but what the neo nazis and KKK along with their associated ilk spew is not free speech when their very existence in the elimination of the United States and all we hold true as a country as outlined in the Declaration of Independence and manifested in the U.S. Constitution. Wake up America and take action accordingly, this garbage it not our country and has no place here.
     
    CTJacket, kg01 and northgajacket like this.
  5. northgajacket

    northgajacket Banned

    Messages:
    1,079
    Pardon my ignorance, but did Charlottesville actually permit the protest? If so the city should have prepared better IMO.
     
    Whiskey_Clear likes this.
  6. northgajacket

    northgajacket Banned

    Messages:
    1,079
    I feel sorry for the residents of Charlottesville.
     
  7. A Love Supreme

    A Love Supreme Helluva Engineer

    Messages:
    790
    All I'm going to say is I feel things will be worse before it gets better.
     
    Technut1990 likes this.
  8. northgajacket

    northgajacket Banned

    Messages:
    1,079
    Unfortunately I think you are right. President Trump really messed it up with his response IMO.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2017
  9. ilovetheoption

    ilovetheoption Helluva Engineer

    Messages:
    2,417
    To me the whole George Washington/Thomas Jefferson thing is hogwash. They never rebelled against the United States of America. Therefor, as far as I'm concerned, they're not traitors. Robert E. Lee did, and so he is (and I'm from the same neck of the woods as Lee. He's from Arlington, I'm from Herndon).
     
    Whiskey_Clear and northgajacket like this.
  10. Whiskey_Clear

    Whiskey_Clear Helluva Engineer

    Messages:
    9,249
    I kinda disagree about the Trump angle. I think any president not named Trump probably would not be scrutinized at all over the actual statements made. How those statements were misquoted in one instance, and spun in others, is what has in large measure fanned the media flames.

    He condemned all who acted violently. By the accounts I have seen there were violent and criminal acts committed by factions of both groups prior to the vehicle attack. He condemned those fairly clearly. I don't think prior presidents would have been scrutinized the way he was afterward.

    When later pressed to condemn the white supremacist in particular he did so and named them as reprehensibles. That would have ended any scrutiny his predecessors may have faced in the same situation imo.

    Then he was castigated for insisting to stipulate that there were some bad actors among the counter protesters and even more for stating there were some innocent peaceful protesters among the original protest group. I honestly don't know how true this last part is but I suspect it probably is true. (If so they were mind numbingly stupid to mingle in a protest largely organized by disgusting white supremacists. Even if in agreement in a particular cause...nothing good could come from even a distant connection with them. They should have organized their own demonstration completely independent of the kkk and white supremacists.)

    So this begs one question. Why did Trump feel the need to state there were some innocents among the original protesters? In part, probably because it is true. I think also in large part due to the antifa violence against pro Trumpers across the country dating back to the campaign rallies. Violence supported by DNC leadership and funded by George Soros. Ditto protests at Berkeley and such motivated to silence conservative speech through violence. (And yes many pro Trumpers have behaved poorly during these standoffs as well.)

    But I do think this incident is being used by leftists and the DNC to unfairly paint Trump and any who support him as racists. And the majority of weak kneed conservatives in Congress are so scared of being painted by that same broad brush they don't have the moral or political courage to point to the truths of these matters. Not to mention that they don't appreciate having their feet held to the fire by him for failing to deliver on their near decade long promises.
     
    awbuzz, GT_05 and northgajacket like this.
  11. Whiskey_Clear

    Whiskey_Clear Helluva Engineer

    Messages:
    9,249
    I will also add that Trump hasn't done himself many favors with some of his prior ill conceived tweets and personal attacks of critics. That has lost him passes many moderates / independents might have been willing to grant him otherwise.
     
    CTJacket, GT_05 and northgajacket like this.
  12. THWG

    THWG Helluva Engineer

    Messages:
    1,666
    George Washington and Thomas Jefferson owned slaves though. I'm opposed to taking the monuments and statues down because they are a part of history and something that should be remembered so it's not repeated again. However, something seriously needs to be done to put America on a better track for the future. What that would be, I have no idea and I'm glad that I don't have to make that decision.
     
  13. kg01

    kg01 Helluva Engineer Featured Member

    Messages:
    8,057
    I'm trying to stay away from this conversation. As a black man in America, there are some very raw emotions with all of this.

    On the bolded, it's hard for me to view Washingto, Jefferson, etc. in that mythical light considering, if they were here, they'd probably view me equivalently with this dog I see being walked outside my window. However, I don't view them in the same light as all these confederate traitors. Washington/Jefferson are part of the country's history so I get it. There will be monuments to them. Thankfully, we're allowed to speak to the full scope of the men they were.

    There should be no monuments to the confederates nor their symbols of oppression. They are traitors. There's no other way to view them. The only time we should see them is in museums or history classes. That's where records of failed coups belong.

    Monuments aren't markers to remind people not to repeat bad acts. They're made to celebrate great men/women. There's a reason statues are rarely erected to living individuals. No one wants to celebrate someone then have them ultimately commit some heinous crime later in life. That's why images of OJ Simpson no longer grace USC's football facilities.

    As the New Orleans mayor's speech suggested, a primary purpose for all these confederate monuments was to let black people know, although we lost the war, we still run things down here. That's why they always talk about the south 'rising again' and 'never forget' and all that rhetoric which is basically designed to be a specter hanging over our heads. Why is that considered a "celebration of history"?

    Sorry for rambling. It's 2018 so we shouldn't still be here with the race discussion. There's a lot of racism in our country's history that was basically a function of the time. I get that. What I don't get is the fight to drag that history into the present by keeping these weird, misplaced symbols and monuments.
     
  14. AE 87

    AE 87 Helluva Engineer

    Messages:
    12,104
    I agree with @kg01 in wanting to stay out of this conversation. I also agree that it's disappointing and disgusting that there are still people who hate and discriminate on the basis of skin color or ethnic origins. Yet there are some in this forum, even a moderator, who spewed all kinds of biased stereotypical nonsense about Germans--not the Nazis, not some political faction among Germans, but the whole ethnic group. I cannot fathom how this kind of bigotry continues, and I'm glad that our government has been trying to rid its laws of the systemic racism which has too often infected it.

    I also find it disappointing and disgusting that we tolerate the killing of the unborn. Yet Oregon has passed a law requiring insurance companies to cover abortions through all 9 months of pregnancy, iiuc, and will use tax dollars to cover uninsured and those with exceptions. I would have thought our society would have grown past the point of declaring certain humans as less than human for the convenience of others. However, we haven't.
     
  15. WreckedbyWhiskey

    WreckedbyWhiskey Jolly Good Fellow

    Messages:
    52
    The freedom of speech argument baffles me. Germany also is a free country and also has "free speech" but they absolutely do NOT tolerate hateful anti-semitic speech for any reason. You don't see Nazi flags flying as a symbol of "culture", there's no statue of Hitler in the square of any town in Germany - its simply not acceptable. The history argument is weird too - Germany's history is preserved without having Nazi statues erected and Nazi flags flying.

    Not that slavery and the holocaust should be compared (I'm NOT trying to compare them at all) but American slavery spanned over 200 years and the holocaust was ~12 years. What message are we sending when we allow Confederate Statues and fly Confederate flags??

    I grew up in Alabama so I'm used to seeing rebel flags as the official flag for high schools - as a matter of fact, Alabama still has every single Jim Crow law listed in it's constitution - I'm technically still not allowed to eat in the same restaurant as white people nor am I allowed to look at a white woman in the eyes (according to the Alabama state constitution). There was a vote years ago to remove the Jim Crow language and it was voted down (surprised??).

    The confederacy was fundamentally trying to undermine the foundation of our country - why do we still tout them as American heroes??
     
  16. smathis30

    smathis30 Helluva Engineer

    Messages:
    575
    "The hottest place in hell was reserved for those who maintained their neutrality in a time of great moral conflict"-MLK
     
  17. kg01

    kg01 Helluva Engineer Featured Member

    Messages:
    8,057
    Only part I disagree with is the idea that it's somehow inappropriate to compare the Holocaust and slavery. Both evil, vile stains on human history.
     
    OldJacketFan likes this.
  18. Whiskey_Clear

    Whiskey_Clear Helluva Engineer

    Messages:
    9,249
    @kg01

    I agree with the majority of your points. I wouldn't classify the Civil War as a coup attempt however. It was literally a war of secession. A war of secession based upon immoral and awful goals imo but secession nonetheless.

    A coup would have entailed an attempt to conquer the northern states and impose southern laws upon them imo.
     
    THWG and cyptomcat like this.
  19. AE 87

    AE 87 Helluva Engineer

    Messages:
    12,104
    Yes. And legalized abortion.
     
  20. kg01

    kg01 Helluva Engineer Featured Member

    Messages:
    8,057
    For me, you can insert 'secession' instead of 'coup', and my point remains the same. Not to be celebrated or revered. Meant to be discussed in history books at most.

    I have a problem with it myself. I also know someone who had an abortion of a pregnancy that resulted from a brutal assault so it's still a multi-layered issue for me. I do hear you, though.
     

Share This Page