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A good tweet on 40 times.

Discussion in 'Georgia Tech Football' started by Eric, Feb 27, 2014.

  1. Eric

    Eric Retired Co-Founder Staff Member

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    GT Man, GTonTop88 and peteHI like this.
  2. Rodney Kent

    Rodney Kent Ramblin' Wreck

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    Actually, it seems reasonable to me that some players from High School might have a faster time than some in the pros. I touched on this briefly in some replies about becoming more muscular. Yes, it is true that some of the olympic speedsters are muscular, however, this is their forte, and they are constantly practicing various things to make their times even faster.

    Personally, I believe that as some players gain weight, even though most of it should be muscle, his total weight may have the effect of slowing him down slightly. It might seem negative, but gaining the muscle might make up for the minute loss of speed due to the extra explosive effort of an athlete. The total effect would probably be according to the playing position of the athelte. As in all of life, this is surely not a one-way effect. Some may benefit from the extra muscles making them slightly faster. Maybe someday, someone will be interested in this subject and take the records of the faster players entering college and their comparisons as they enter the pros.

    The effort would have to make sure the times were not stated by the athletes themselves, but true times measured by the coaches. It would be an interesting survey.
     
    augustabuzz and jayparr like this.
  3. daBuzz

    daBuzz Helluva Engineer

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    Spend some time out there with high school coaches of any sport (football timing 40's, baseball timing 60's) and you'll find the answer. Three or four guys with stop watches...the kid runs, and 4 different values that are often as much as 2 tenths of a second apart. Factor in the natural bias of the coach wanting his player to be fast and either the start or the stop not being 100 % accurate and then you have the answer.

    Laser times are always slower than hand times.
     
    Eric likes this.
  4. Rodney Kent

    Rodney Kent Ramblin' Wreck

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    dabuzz: Yes, I realize that and the kids also up their time for bragging rights. It seems to me that the coaches would clock every player when they get to college, and even some of them in the various camps.
     
  5. franklinjacket

    franklinjacket Ramblin' Wreck

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    When I was in high school, our coach timed everyone and the same guy would run twice and it would be a 4.6 the first time and a 4.9 the next. Unless its laser timed, it really doesn't count. A high school coach with fat thumbs and bad eyes isn't going to give anyone an accurate time.
     
  6. gtg936g

    gtg936g Helluva Engineer

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    Do we know what Snoddy's 40 tome is? I thought the track guys had laser times published somewhere.
     
  7. Boomergump

    Boomergump Moderator Staff Member

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    Generally speaking, players don't get slower unless age catches up, injury, or they undergo a massive change in body type. For example, Kallon might be slower now that he is 3 bills instead of 235. However, I would lay money that Custis is now faster than he was in HS even though he is 10 pounds heavier and a lot stronger. Rodney, the reason for the phenomenon you speak of is nothing more than what others have said in the last few posts. It is not that they are getting slower. It is the thumbs on the stop watch. daBuzz is right, there is no human reaction time to start the clock with automated systems. When a human is holding the watch, he sees the guy start, then he pushes the button. That alone is probably .05 sec in most cases. Then at the finish end it can vary either way trying to time the crossing of the line. A "true" 4.4 is pretty effing fast. So is a fake, hand timed 4.4, but they are not the same. I don't put a lot of stock in the published times of recruiting services etc. Speed becomes evident when you see them on the field.
     
  8. daBuzz

    daBuzz Helluva Engineer

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    I took some of my baseball players to a speed and agility guy about 3 years ago and I found it fascinating to watch how much that guy could help them improve their times. I thought I was pretty good with a stopwatch but he and I both tried hand timing 40's while the kids were also running laser timed. I think I got close to the laser time one time out of about 60 different times. And by close, I mean it would register something like 4.71 and I got 4.70. The rest of the time, I was a MINIMUM of 1 tenth of a second off, but usually about 2 tenths. And even with me being aware of the timing of the laser being slower and me trying to adjust to match it, I was still almost always registering a faster time than the laser.

    Now one thing I found incredibly fascinating was when they ran what he called "rolling 40's". That seemed to me to be the true test of top end speed because the players were allowed to back up as far as they wanted and then run past the start timer at full speed. The entire 40 was run at max speed so it took out the "quickness" factor and just measured the top end speed. I would think that would be a useful time for WR's whom you're recruiting as deep threat guys because you're going to want to see how much separation that kid should be able to attain.
     
  9. stylee

    stylee Helluva Engineer Featured Member

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    There are so many modalities of 40 timing that the phrase "40 time" isn't, itself, very meaningful.

    1) single stopwatch, entirely hand-timed, stopwatch begins on player's first movement
    2) single stopwatch, entirely hand-timed, stopwatch begins on coach shouting "go!"
    3) two stopwatches, entirely hand-timed, stopwatches begin on player's first movement
    4) two stopwatches, entirely hand-times, stopwatches begin on coach shouting "go!"
    5) touch-pad starts clock running, single stopwatch ends clock running
    6) touch-pad starts clock running, multiple stopwatches end clock running
    7) single stopwatch starts clock running on player's first movement, laser ends clock running
    8) single stopwatch starts clock running on coach shouting "go!", laser ends clock running
    9) touch-pad starts clock running, laser ends clock running (fully automatic)


    Add in, for some of these: on grass/on track. Also: sneakers/cleats/track spikes. Also: indoor/outdoor

    All these methods will yield very different times - adjusting for runner's reaction time (to "go!" call), timer's reaction time (to players first movement AND to when player crosses the line), speed of surface, footwear, etc


    With track and field, there's a standardized way of timing for every serious meet - fully automatic timing. Football, in general, eschews fully automatic timing because it results in the "slowest" (most accurate) time. For this reason, it is very very difficult to compare 40 times - there's simply no way of knowing how it was timed and whether anyone is being honest about the results.



    Comparing the slowest and fastest ways of timing: let's say we have one coach with a stopwatch, starting the clock when he sees the kid move and ending it when he thinks he sees the kid pass the line ...at 4.3.

    Fully automatic timing would add in maybe .24 for the coach reacting to the movement, up to 0.1 to the coach anticipating the finish...now it's 4.64.

    I have never trusted a 40 time.
     
  10. Rodney Kent

    Rodney Kent Ramblin' Wreck

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    Boomergump: I don't disagree with most of your synopsis, but it does bring out the fact of quickness plus straight ahead speed. Those with quickness and speed will normally be downfield before you realize it. I do most of my analyzing by watching the players year in and year out. I have seen some teams look as if they were molded by some elite muscle machines. Then I have seen other teams with smaller players step on the field and completely destroy those teams due to their speed and quickness.

    It then makes me consider if the muscle machine looking team had not slowed themselves down with too much weight lifting. Now, there is another factor. It is possible their trainer did not know the difference between specialized lifting as opposed to just building muscle.
     
  11. franklinjacket

    franklinjacket Ramblin' Wreck

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    This is definitely what you want in players. I like to call it explosiveness. Dwyer at his peak could hit his top gear before most defenders could react. The result was a highlight reel of big plays. On paper I don't think Anthony Allen was much different than Dwyer, but you can count his big plays on 1 hand (don't get me wrong though, I love AA). The difference is that Allen was not as explosive as Dwyer, so he ended up relying on his strength and often bulled through the middle.

    About the muscle machines vs. smaller athletes: sometimes you get a guy like Percy Harvin and his teams win championships.
     
  12. GTonTop88

    GTonTop88 Helluva Engineer

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    Most high schools seem to have that many on one team. Lol
     
  13. GT Man

    GT Man Helluva Engineer

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    I'm sure they were ALL from the mighty SEC!
     

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